Markings for MvR's 425/17

[Laserlloyd]

What Laser Lloyd has written is pure imagination and is not supported by any facts whatsoever.

I have based what I said on purely just the facts. In no way is this imagination. You have seen the sample fabric from 425/17 including your own in which I also have a photo of. There is NO evidence of any other color under the red except for the samples from the bottom surface that has the blue. This is supported by Alan Toelle microscopic examination on many of the fabric samples from 425/17 including yours. The curator at AWM has also indicated that there is no other color under the red except for the samples from the bottom surface that has the blue. There is no evidence that supports that 425/17 had the standard Fokker streaked finish.

If there is no other color under the red on the top surfaces then it was accepted without any paint and this is most unlikely. The BLV outlines the requirements for the planes and we know that this was not always followed letter to letter by Fokker. Every Dr.I plane that was accepted after March 17, 1918 had the Eisernes Kreuz with the full white field, Fokker ignored the Idflieg directive to change this so when it comes to Fokker following everything the BLV lay-out is not correct. I do believe that Yes Fokker did comply to this but he had and was give some latitude when it came down to 425/17 and lets not forget Göring’s all white D.VII.

From what I’m getting from you is that if Fokker did something like this that it would have been documented. Yes, there is no document that stats this along with MvR flying 425/17 before 19 April 1918 but this dose not mean that it wasn’t documented. There are lots of missing documents and who’s to say that we haven’t seen it yet. I my self don’t hold credence to fact that this had to be document. Making a cosmetic change I think would not warrant this as long as the construction and fabrication of the plane was the same and not effected for just one minor change of the paint scheme. I go to manufactures every week and some of them are ISO controlled and yes any change of the parts had to be documented but I have seen a common practice of making demo or show piece that all that parts are controlled but the paint or powder coating color is not documented because it’s not changing the rest of the production pieces. We call this a One-Off, a one of a kind.

I fully stand behind what I had stated because this was based on the evidence that we do have until new evidence can prove different.


iart7 and Patrick:

All Dr.I’s had the Eisernes Kreuz with the full white field.

This is port side fuselage cross that shows the white field over painted.

Photo-Alan Toelle - held at RCMI

This is how 425/17 would have looked before the red was applied.

There are a couple of things on the markings that still needs to be added like the work numbers are missing and 425 along with the wrong font on the rudder

As far as the artwork goes, I haven't seen one that I would say is correct. You have to remember that there is a lot of bad information out there and this does not represent any think but the artists creativity. The only one that I would say is the closest would be Russell Smith's - Feeding On The Legend
Lloyd…

[Patrick]

That sure looks like a white field beneath the red.

But did MvR ever fly it operationally like that -- with the large white fields intact?

And seeing it makes me wonder about the second set of markings, where the Eisenkreuse have a narrow white border. So at some point after the plane left Fokker, the large white field was painted out with red paint, leaving only a narrow border around the crosses? Then it was painted white again to make the straight-arm crosses?

ADDED LATER --

Lloyd, this answers my questions about the sequence of painting -- from the "other" 425/17 thread:

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Hi Ronny Bar:

At the Fokker factory theses are the steps that took place for Fok.Dr.I 425/17.

First Color scheme
Painting of Wings and Fusalage January, 1918 (after dope)(Wings and fuselage painted in different times during the manufacturing process)
1). The white cross fields are painted.
2). The Black Eisernes Kreuz is painted.
3). The top surface is painted Red.
4). The bottom surfaces painted Blue along with the struts.
5). All the stenciling is painted Black.

NO streaked camouflage was ever applied.

This is the state Fok.Dr.I 425/17 on and before January 8, 1918 acceptance.

How is this possible:

Form microscopic examination of the RMCI cross sample by Alan Toelle with cross section of the layers of paint in the white cross area shows the dope layer then the white layer then on top of that the blue.

The RMCI sample clearly shows the black stenciling on top of the red and then a light coat of red on top of the black stenciling.

The BLV document lays-out the rules for a plane to be accepted. To find out more on this read: Fokker Factory Acceptance Requirements

The Second color change, I believe to be in mid-February and not March.

Second Color Scheme At Lechelle Airfield
1). The White Eisernes Kreuz field is painted red to bring it to current standards.
2). All the blue surfaces are painted red (struts, bottom of wings. bottom of fuselage and bottom of stabilizer).
3). The remaining stencillings are lightly painted over.

This is depicted in the three photos of 425/17 at Lechelle Airfield.


The third and forth color changes are limited to the next two cross changes.

Lloyd...

thx!

[Laserlloyd]

Patrick:

We just don't know if MvR did fly 425/17 until April 19th because there is know combat report on it. This is were Dan-San says that if MvR did fly 425/17 before this date there should have been some record of this. We have to remember that we don't have all the records and what is the requirements for an entry to be notated. If there is no combat claims that was made on that days flight would there be a notation of which planes were flown that didn't have any combat claims, I don't think so. Here is were this theory fall apart, there is no day to day account of which pilot flow which plane for every combat and non-combat flight. So why would there be a special notation on when MvR flow 425/17 if there was no combat claims made in it.

I beleive that MvR did fly this at some point before April 19th but it was not necessary to record these flight because it was not used for combat flights. Ok this is speculative and there is nothing that supports this but there also nothing that doesn't support it.

Lloyd...

[Laserlloyd]

Time line for 425/17 w/n 2009

1/8/1918 – 425/17 was accepted.
Approximately 1/22/1918 – some of the plane accepted on 1/8/18 were dispatched on this date. No record of the date of 425/17 being dispatched and or delivered but this doesn't mean that 425/17 sat at the Fokker factory until sometime in March before bing shipped.
Approximately 2/5/1918 is then when 425/17 would have been delivered to Jasta 11 at Avesnes-le-Sec airfield by Cambrai.
The first photo of 425/17 shows the first cross change to the non-white field and a 50mm white border that was to take effective before March 17. So 425/17 had to have this change between 2/5/18-3/17/18.
On March 17 the Idflieg ordered the change of the Eisernes Kreuz to be replaced by the Balkenkreuz.
Since the first photo of 425/17 was taken at Lechelle airfield and that Jasta 11 didn’t move to Lechelle airfield until March 26 this then had to be take between March 26 – April 11

There is a lot of things that don't match, one thing is why did 425/17 have the 50mm white border on it at Lechelle airfield in late March. This is well over the due date for the next cross change by March 17 and the arrival at Lechelle airfield on March 26, the other planes in the photo also have this cross style. Why then...Is the Identification of the location in the photograph correct, Is this really Lechelle airfield? or do we just have are dates mixed up. Could the photo have been taken at Avoingt Airfield by Cambrai between 20Mar18-25Mar18, I don't know how to identify the hanger in the photo to which airfield.

Dan-San

6.At no time had Ed Ferko ever published by any means, any information prior to his death, about being able to to read the Fok.DR.I 425/17 on the photographs of the ALL RED Fokker in front of the Bessoneau Hangar at Le Chelle Airfield taken on 26 March 1918.

I would like to point out that Greg VanWyngarden has published in his Windsock Data Special “Fokker DR.I Jagdstaffeln” on photo number 11/31 (page 31) “Ferko had pristine first generation prints of this and the next photo, (11/32) and he could read the serial 425/17 beneath the thin layer of red paint….” I know Greg would not have stated this with out having this documented.

Lloyd…

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Time line for 425/17 w/n 2009

. . .

Dan-San

I would like to point out that Greg VanWyngarden has published in his Windsock Data Special “Fokker DR.I Jagdstaffeln” on photo number 11/31 (page 31) “Ferko had pristine first generation prints of this and the next photo, (11/32) and he could read the serial 425/17 beneath the thin layer of red paint….” I know Greg would not have stated this with out having this documented.

Lloyd…

Both Ferko and Greg also mention another marker that IDs the Léchelle photo of 03/26/1918 as 425/17. Look on page 63 of Ferko. The top photo, taken at Léchelle, clearly shows a distinctive wavey-line paint flaw just below the cockpit. Now look at page 68. The photo at the bottom shows 425/17 sometime between 04/01 - 04/17/1918 -- and the same paint flaw. Greg shows the same photo on page 32 of the Dr.I JG Special and points out the same mark. Either the plane at Léchelle is 425/17, or you have to argue that neither photo shows 425/17 -- or that two different planes have similar finishes with the identical paint flaw.

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Time line for 425/17 w/n 2009
I would like to point out that Greg VanWyngarden has published in his Windsock Data Special “Fokker DR.I Jagdstaffeln” on photo number 11/31 (page 31) “Ferko had pristine first generation prints of this and the next photo, (11/32) and he could read the serial 425/17 beneath the thin layer of red paint….” I know Greg would not have stated this with out having this documented.

Lloyd…

I recently contacted UTD about the photos or negatives of MvR's all red triplane and emailed them a couple of pics of the inverted "V" plane, one with balken and one with iron crosses to compair, to see if they could find originals. This Tuesday I got a reply from Ms Nava. Here is the portion of the email that concerns MvR's triplane.

"Dear Mr. Watson,

Please excuse me for just now getting in contact with you, but I’ve attended a conference last week. I looked through the Fokker Dr. I and Jasta 11 photos of the Ferko Collection. I did find the images of the prints that you send us. However, these are not originals but reprints."


"Our volunteers are currently processing more negatives from the Ferko Collections and I instructed them to be on the lookout for those two serial numbers of the Fokker Dr I. In case they find something, I will contact you again. The only mention of a Fokker Dr I 425/17 is in a document about Richthofen’s 80iest victory. But I could not locate the document, only a photograph of these facsimiles."

So far they have not found the originals just reprints..

Originally Posted by Patrick

Both Ferko and Greg also mention another marker that IDs the Léchelle photo of 03/26/1918 as 425/17. Look on page 63 of Ferko. The top photo, taken at Léchelle, clearly shows a distinctive wavey-line paint flaw just below the cockpit. Now look at page 68. The photo at the bottom shows 425/17 sometime between 04/01 - 04/17/1918 -- and the same paint flaw. Greg shows the same photo on page 32 of the Dr.I JG Special and points out the same mark. Either the plane at Léchelle is 425/17, or you have to argue that neither photo shows 425/17 -- or that two different planes have similar finishes with the identical paint flaw.

This only shows that the plane with the inverted "V" underwent a cross change it does not prove the identity of the plane as 425/17. Remember the other triplane photo that was supposed to be 477/17 undergoing a cross change? For years it was believed it was MvR's 477/17 but it turned out to be Griem's plane.

CWatson

[Laserlloyd]

CWatson:

I beleive that Dan-San had told me that he had spent some time back at UTD some years ago and he said something about missing items from Ferko Collection, I think he said photo or fabric samples. He had spent some time in looking for it but couldn't find it. He knew it was there because he had seen them there before. DS can fill us in on the details.

Greg may know something on this but he's going to stay out on any debate on 425/17 because this topic can get out of hand rather quickly, but it would still be nice to know if he had seen the original. Then there is also Paul L. to see what he know of the Ferko Collection. Lets not forget Taz but I think he's also staying out of this one too.

You had to bring up 477/17, the cat is out of the bag now....

Lloyd...

[RAGIII]

Forgetting any supposition it can be clearly proven from extant fabric samples that 425/17 went through at least 2 cross changes in its RED scheme. From Jasta 11s' original interpretation of the Idflieg order resulting in wide black crosses, to the more correct form seen on the fuselage but not completed on the wings on April 21st, 1918.These markings were changed in stages as were all other Jasta 11 triplanes.Whether MvR flew it or not prior to April 19th, the machine was certainly finished in Red for MvR, long before that date. The crosses were changed using red,black and white, no green/olive brown thus no question of it having been in service with a non MvR Red scheme. As for the photos not being Lachelle at the date given I feel the panoramic view showing Jasta 6 Dr1s that have undergone the cross change, as well as Jasta 11 birds that have not pretty much dates the picture as stated by Imrie. JMHO,
RAGIII

[iart7]

Thanks, RAGIII!

My take on this and Patrick's victory tally is that no records were kept on the flights unless there was a "kill". Is that correct? So MvR could have flown 425/17 any number of times on other dates not on that list? A test flight at the factory, if he made it, would not have been reported? I was hoping for a comment on that Anthony Fokker photo where he's setting up a "white-square-field" DR1 for MvR. Is it "streaky"?

Art

[Laserlloyd]

iart7:

This is what I beleive but then there is no evidence to prove it, I would think that If this was painted for him then he wouldn't have waited to April 19 to fly it. Why is this never brought up, the plane was painted for him so he had to of flown it before that date. I hope one day there will be something on the early 425/17 that will clear up it's identity.

The photo your talking about is w/n 1697 F.I 101/17. Anthony Fokker is in the cockpit, Reinhold Platz on the ladder, other person unknown. 101/17 did have the standard Fokker streaking camouflage and blue underside.

Lloyd...