Markings for MvR's 425/17

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lloyd:
What we have relative to Fok.DR.I 425/17 is:
1. Bauaufsicht 13 acceptance sheets for Fokker aircraft. It lists that Fok.DR.I 425/17 was acceppted on 8 January 1918, werke nr. 2009, Oberursel engine s.n. 2478. and it was test flown and accepted by Weidner
2. We have no data whatsoever when it was shipped or where to.
3. Some people have claimed it was at LeChelle on 26 March 1918, painted all red. That is pure assumption, not a fact. I don't believe it for a minute. A.E.Ferko and others had believed it to be Dr.I 477/17. They changed their minds.
4. If it was there on 26 March 1918, Why did MvR not fly it?

There are no records, documents of the whereabouts of Fok.DR.I 425/17 from 8 January 1918 to 20 April 1918. There are no shipping documents or description of or how it was finished. We don't know when it was painted red, by whom and where. And there is no mention anywhere of when it was issued to Jagdgeschwader Nr.1.
If someone claims to know this, he is full of crap, and he is talking out of the side of his head..
5. The next record have of Fok.DR.I 425/17 is the MvR "combat Reports" for
for 20 April 1918, 79th victory and his 80th victory.
6. The next record of Fok.DR.I is The Red Knight opf Germany" by Floyd Gibbons, Garden City Publishing, Garden City, N.Y. 1927, combat report by Capt. A.R.Brown, No.209 Squadron, pages 363-364.
7. The next record is the report in "Jagd in flandern Himmel" By Karl Bodenschatz, Verlag Knorr & Hirth, G.m.b.H. München, 1935, pages 80 and 178. MvR's last flight on Fok.DR.I 425/17.

All other information relative to Fok.DR.I 425/17 was written, collected, disimanated and/or published or presented after and from the above records.

[Taz]

All references to Dr.I 477/17 in MvR's reports state it was painted like Dr.I 127/17. There is no reference to 477/17 being painted all red. This has been rehashed so many times it is redundant.

Dan-San and others believe the Lechelle all-red Triplane, of which three images exist, is 477/17. Most of us believe it is 425/17. We know the photo Alex Imrie thought was 477/17 was actually 521/17 (or a very late Dr.I) because of the short chord axle wing only fitted to Dr.I 500+ serial numbers.

This will not be settled regardless of how stridently anyone states their case because it appears the original images were pilfered before UTD implemented stringent security rules.

Choose your side. Nobody can prove you wrong. Just like the color of the cowling on Voss' F.I 103/17, the color of the stripes on Udet's Du Doch Nicht! upper wing, or whether 454/17 had a yellow overpainted upper wing. Opinion is all there is.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[iart7]

Thanks Everyone!

Thanks Taz, DSA, Pat, Lloyd, RAGIII and all others.

I hope the day will come when we can discuss the soul of the man behind the crosshairs with finger on the trigger and no longer the color of the 2nd or 3rd coat of paint on the machine. I'm troubled by the description of MvR as "ruthless" and the way he more resembles the "Black Falcon" pilot and less the "Crossed Swords" pilot.

<S>

Art

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Iart7:
Paint your versions of MvR's triplane anyway you wish, but don't claim it to be actually correct, other than its configuration when shot down.
The reason I jumped on Lloyd was he was claiming something as a fact when there is no evidence to support.that assetrtion. That is precisely why I listed ALL the known facts and there sources. Anything that can be substantiated by the document are facts all te rest is Buls--t1. One thing for sure, there are a lot of guys here, and out there, that are using there imaginations and then stating them to be fact.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
There are photos of MvR's Fok.F.I 102/17, Fok.Dr.I 114/17, Fok.DR.I 127/17 both versions, Fok.DR.I 152/17, and Fok.DR.I 425/17. Aad photos of the machines he flew once, but oddly enough according to some, there are no photographs of Fok.DR.I 477/17, the machine which he scored most of the triplane victories. This is very odd?? MvR was at the heighth of his fame, photographers were all around and no pictures were taken of Fok.DR.I 477/17!, Can any of the experts solve this oddity?
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Blue skies,

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
There are photos of MvR's Fok.F.I 102/17, Fok.Dr.I 114/17, Fok.DR.I 127/17 both versions, Fok.DR.I 152/17, and Fok.DR.I 425/17. Aad photos of the machines he flew once, but oddly enough according to some, there are no photographs of Fok.DR.I 477/17, the machine which he scored most of the triplane victories. This is very odd?? MvR was at the heighth of his fame, photographers were all around and no pictures were taken of Fok.DR.I 477/17!, Can any of the experts shed some light on this oddity, there are photos of every Fokker Triplane that MvR flew, but none of the Triplane MvR flew most?
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Blue skies,

[RAGIII]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Lloyd:
What we have relative to Fok.DR.I 425/17 is:
1. Bauaufsicht 13 acceptance sheets for Fokker aircraft. It lists that Fok.DR.I 425/17 was acceppted on 8 January 1918, werke nr. 2009, Oberursel engine s.n. 2478. and it was test flown and accepted by Weidner
2. We have no data whatsoever when it was shipped or where to.
3. Some people have claimed it was at LeChelle on 26 March 1918, painted all red. That is pure assumption, not a fact. I don't believe it for a minute. A.E.Ferko and others had believed it to be Dr.I 477/17. They changed their minds.
4. If it was there on 26 March 1918, Why did MvR not fly it?

There are no records, documents of the whereabouts of Fok.DR.I 425/17 from 8 January 1918 to 20 April 1918. There are no shipping documents or description of or how it was finished. We don't know when it was painted red, by whom and where. And there is no mention anywhere of when it was issued to Jagdgeschwader Nr.1.
If someone claims to know this, he is full of crap, and he is talking out of the side of his head..
5. The next record have of Fok.DR.I 425/17 is the MvR "combat Reports" for
for 20 April 1918, 79th victory and his 80th victory.
6. The next record of Fok.DR.I is The Red Knight opf Germany" by Floyd Gibbons, Garden City Publishing, Garden City, N.Y. 1927, combat report by Capt. A.R.Brown, No.209 Squadron, pages 363-364.
7. The next record is the report in "Jagd in flandern Himmel" By Karl Bodenschatz, Verlag Knorr & Hirth, G.m.b.H. München, 1935, pages 80 and 178. MvR's last flight on Fok.DR.I 425/17.

All other information relative to Fok.DR.I 425/17 was written, collected, disimanated and/or published or presented after and from the above records.

Dan, A few questions:
1 Do you disagree that 425/17 showed no streaking of green/olive brown beneath the red on existing samples?
2.Do you disagree that the surviving samples of crosses held in museums show the "progression" of markings changes that occurred over a period of time on all other DR1s in Jasta 11. From iron cross to thick Balkan Cross to thin? Part Two of this question , are there any signs of colors other than RED, BLACK, or White used to convert the crosses?
3.Are there other triplanes that show a 6 to 8 week gap in records?

Please note that I am not asking about photos at lechelle just reference the surviving samples of 425/17 as it was souveniered on April 21st 1918!
RAGIII

[Laserlloyd]

Hi RAGIII:

Despite the lack of DOCUMENTS, we do have the fabric samples that are held at IWM,RCMI, AWM and the on cross in Peter Jacksons museum in NZ. These and ones held in private collection have been examined by Alan Toelle. He has run microscopic and chemical testing on these samples and can't find ANY other color under the red except for the blue underside color from the underside surfaces. All the top and side surfaces show no signs of ANY color under the red.

This is how I can prove that it was painted at the Fokker factory before it was accepted on January 8, 1918. The plane would have never been accepted without being painted. The only color found on the samples are the blue and red then the white and black of the cross fields and work-number markings. Do i Need a document that notated this or explains it, no the evidence speaks for us. If we did not have this evidence the yes Dan-San would be correct but there is the evidence that proves no other color them red. The samples from RCMI and AWM clearly show the cross changes that were made.

I don't have documents that say this, I have evidence that prove this and thats more them a document could tell us. As a investigator you follow the evidence and the evidence tells us that 425/17 was painted with the old style full white field Eisernes Kreuz with RED top and side surfaces and the blue underside.

I say I you don't agree with this them prove it to me because the evidence we have proves 425/17 was painted red at the Fokker factory. If it wasn't then it was test flown, accepted and shipped just with the fabric being in it's natural varnished state and what would that odds of that happing.

I can also tell you that "NO" it was not spray painted as suggested by some. This theory comes from the shiny surface that is shown in the photos but this is seen a a lot of other photos I have with just the standard Fokker streaked camouflage. Once again the Evidence speaks for us by showing brush marks in the samples.

The photo evidence of the three photos at Lechelle and the last known photo of 425/17 match with the inverted "V" found in both photos. along with the inverted "V" are some other smudges next to to and these are also found in both photos. I addition to this Taz and I have photos of the left-side and right-side portion of 425/17 in Jasta 11 flightline.

So, to conclude Dan-San has listed the documents that we have but neglected to mention the evidence that we also have. Based on the known documents, the photos, the evidence (fabric samples) and the vary thrall examinations are as Dan-San states "my full of crap".

Dan-San:
I hold you as a good friend and one I wish I had your knowledge but sometime friend don't always see eye to eye. I think that you have your own conclusion and I have mine. We may never agree on this between us but this shouldn't hinder our friendship. I look forward in talking to you and learning as mush as I can from you in the future.

Fly high and Blue skies...

Lloyd..

[CWatson]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

The photo evidence of the three photos at Lechelle and the last known photo of 425/17 match with the inverted "V" found in both photos. along with the inverted "V" are some other smudges next to to and these are also found in both photos. I addition to this Taz and I have photos of the left-side and right-side portion of 425/17 in Jasta 11 flightline.

Are the photos that show portions of the left and right side of 425/17 published? If not will they be posted on your site?


Thanks again,
CWatson

[Dan_San_Abbott]

RAGIII:
I can confirm to you my fabric sample from Fok.DR.I 425/17 did not have any other color than a dark red and clear dope on it.
I cannot speak of the samples held by the Imperial War Museum in London, especially the large piece of the upper wing cross, the left lower wing cross in the Australian War Museum Canberra, The several pieces I have examined, all appeared to have no under coat of any color under the dark red, however, I did not flake off the red paint to see what was under-neath. I have seen, samples with a definite sky blue under coating. I might add the cross field under the lower wing, were clear doped only, without the white crossfields. I have assumed the samples without any under color were from those locations. I can see no reason why Fok.DR.I would be not delivered without the camouflage streaked finish. In Alan Toelle's comment in his test report of four samples examined that the red paint was crudely mixed in the field, not at a factory. This is in regard to the large carbon black particulates mixed with the vermilion red paint.
Blue skies,
Dan-San