Markings for MvR's 425/17

[iart7]

EDITED:

I've painted skins for the Red Baron's "all-red" triplanes. I am wondering, since I am so inexperienced with the historical aspects of when things happened month-to-month or even day-by-day: what is the correct order of the cross changes that took place.

Art

[Laserlloyd]

Start here with this thread and then I can fill in the date for you.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ca...-425-17-a.html

Lloyd...

[iart7]

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/365515-post39.html

The link above helps a lot. I'm re-arranging the pics. Logically, since the white SQUARE is visible on the "all red" plane, that had to mean the white SQUARE came first. I could still be wrong, so here's another try, first to last:

I am thinking that they were:


1. EisenKreuse (Iron Cross) (with WHITE SQUARE field)
....bottom surfaces painted blue
....this is January 8, 1918?


2. EisenKreuse White Square painted red
....All the blue surfaces are painted red
....(white square barely shows)
....Lechelle Airfield, March, 1918?


3. Balkan Cross (he was killed in this one, right?)
....April 1918

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Lloyd for the link:

Camouflage and Markings - Page 2 - The Aerodrome Forum

Art

[Aquilius]

I really do like your pics!

Great work!


Have a look here at the different german cross types : National Markings
The last order must be right.
I don´t know if the big "Balkenkreuz" (beam cross) was painted on that plane.

Cheers

Aquilius

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Iart7:
There is evidence to support your illustration depicting Fok.DR.I 425/17.
1. There is evidence MvR ever flew Dr.I 425/17 before 19 April 1918.
2. There are no pictures of Dr.I 425/17 was ever painted as you have painted it as of 8 January 1918.
3. What Laser Lloyd has written is pure imagination and is not supported by any facts whatsoever.
4. There is nothing in the Fokker Acceptance sheets that define the finish of any Fokker aircraft. they list the date, aircraft type, serial number, werke nummer, and engine serial number, and the test pilot's name.
5. When a machine is presented to the Bauaufsicht, this case Bauaufsicht 13for acceptance, it must conform to all the requirements of the BLV, not some, ALL. Fokker had just had an episode with Flugzeugmeisterei over questionable workmanship and a history of problems and he is going to present a machine with a nonregulation finish to the Bauaufsicht 13 for acceptance, I seriously doubt it. If so there would have been a remark about it. Had the authorization came from Flz, Fokker would have publically made the most of it. There is not one piece of paper, no letters, no hype, no instructions, nothing, it was not mentioned in his biography, he certainly mentioned everything else. It was not painted red at the Fokker Factory, it painted the field at Jasta 11. There is NO history of Fok.DR.I 425/17 prior to 20 April 1918.
6.At no time had Ed Ferko ever published by any means, any information prior to his death, about being able to to read the Fok.DR.I 425/17 on the photographs of the ALL RED Fokker in front of the Bessoneau Hangar at Le Chelle Airfield taken on 26 March 1918.
7.The only person who said he could read Fok.DR.425/17, was Alan Toelle on the piece of fabric from the left side of the fuselage of the actual Fok.DR.I 425/17. And that was after Ed Ferko died. The words and music don't fit together.
8. There is no information when Dr.I 425/17 was delivered to Jage Nr.1. Acceptance dates are not shipping or delivery dates.
If someone has documented evidence to the contrary, publish it and/or, prove it. Forget the opinions. Opinions are not facts.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Patrick]

Did 425/17 ever appear as red with the large white square cross fields?

The pictures I have of this plane show only two schemes: the early version at Léchelle, March 1918, that corresponds to Picture 2, Eisenkreuse, and the final version, same as Picture 3. On page 44 of Ferko's book on MvR, he shows three schemes for 425/17. First as Picture 2, then in a transitional scheme where the arms of the black crosses are too thick, surrounded by thinner white borders, and finally as Picture 3 with the white borders larger, thinning out the black arms. No solid white fields.

[iart7]

Originally Posted by DanSan Abbott

There is evidence to support your illustration depicting Fok.DR.I 425/17.
There is evidence MvR ever flew Dr.I 425/17 before 19 April 1918.

My friend, DSA, check the above quote. Did you mean to say "NO evidence" (twice)?

I'm basing my #1 version (with white square field) partly on the assumption that if you take the white square and overpaint it, leaving a white border around the eisenkreusen, it will appear like the version #2. It would have possibly a pattern where the white square might show through the red coat. This is as Tim West painted the plane so superbly here:

Missed a spot........... - The Aerodrome Gallery
Missed a spot........... - The Aerodrome Gallery

There is even a hint by Mr. West (at least I see it) of the white showing through on the top wing crosses.

It is shown this way by another artist, Barry Weekly, who did many MvR paintings one of which shows 425/17 as having a white square field (overpainted):

Red Baron Morn

and another painting by Chris Thomas with the white square field intact (prior to being overpainted?).

http://www.fokkerdr1.com/Arrtwork/redbaron.jpg

and "The Ringmaster" by artist Stan Stokes (no small fry):

The Ringmaster

I am by no means placing all credibility in the works of artists. I just want all the help I can get. NOTE: I just edited my first post and put "?" on the dates since I don't know for sure for myself.

I wonder if Rosebud's Aviation Archive photo of Anthony Fokker is possibly 425/17? The caption says the plane is being set up for MvR.

Thanks,

Art

[Patrick]

Art, I guess that although the scheme makes sense from a "technically possible" POV, there's just no real evidence for it. MvR got victory 63 on 11/30/1917, flying Alb D.V 4693/17. Then he's mostly gone for the next three months, to Russia, Adlershof and home to Schweidnitz. He doesn't get victory 64 until 03/12/1918, and he gets it in Dr.I 152/17. His next victories are as follows:

65 - 03/13/1918 - Dr.I 152.17
66 - 03/18/1918 - Dr.I 152/17
67 - 03/24/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
68 - 03/25/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
69 - 03/26/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
70 - 03/26/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
71 - 03/27/1918 - Dr.I 127/17
72 - 03/27/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
73 - 03/27/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
74 - 03/28/1918 - Dr.I 127/17
75 - 04/02/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
76 - 04/06/1918 - Dr.I 127/17
77 - 04/07/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
78 - 04/07/1918 - Dr.I 477/17
79 - 04/20/1918 - Dr.I 425/17
80 - 04/20/1918 - Dr.I 425/17

All victory data from Under The Guns of the Red Baron, Franks, Giblin and McCrery.

As you can see, he only gained two victories, his last two, in 425/17. Circumstantially, this points to 425/17 being a new (or relatively new) replacement for 477/17. But Paul Leaman states that MvR test-flew 425/17 on 01/08/1918 (in his book Fokker Dr.I Triplane, A World War One Legend). According to Peter Kilduff (in Richthofen, Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron), MvR left the Peace Conference at Brest-Litovsk sometime after 01/05/1918 and was ordered back to Germany on a morale-building tour. He certainly could have been around to test fly 425/17 on 01/08/1918 if it was still at the Fokker factory.

So 425/17 must have existed in January, 1918, but it appears to still be in Fokker's inventory. Perhaps after test flying it, Fokker made arrangements to have it painted at the factory in MvR's red scheme. Or maybe it already was in red and MvR arrived to test "his" plane, already prepped by Fokker especially for him. But there's no way to know if it had the older-style white square field-and-cross markings, or just white-outlined Eisenkreuse.

None of the reference material I have shows any picture, text reference, or profile illustration of the white-square markings on 425/17. I think most creditable researchers would be unwilling to go out on such a speculative limb -- there's just no evidence for these markings on MvR's all-red Dr.I. My guess is that a lot of artists and model kit makers are unaware that MvR flew at least three different Dr.Is within a few months time period, and they conflate the various marking and coloring schemes.

You can certainly keep your first scheme for the flight sim skins, but just know that it's purely speculative. In fact, as Dan pointed out above, there's no evidence at all that MvR flew 425/17 operationally before 04/20/1918 -- and plenty of circumstantial evidence indicating he didn't. Most of his triplane victories were in 477/17; this plane is far more representative of this period in his career. And 477/17 is not an all-red Dr.I; parts of it are Fokker streaky-camo'd. All-red 425/17 happens to be famous simply because he met his end in it.

BTW, very nice work -- the skins look good. What sim do you fly them in?

[iart7]

Very Enlightening, Patrick. THNKX!

I just wonder where Tim West and Barry Weekly got the idea to have the solid white "Overpainted"?

I also wonder:

1. Did anyone else fly 425/17 while MvR flew 477/17?
2. What plane is A. Fokker "setting up" for MvR in the archive photo?

I never said the dates (stated with ?) were when MvR achieved victories. Could he have flown 425/17 prior to April 20, 1918? And, then again, if he didn't, that does not mean the plane did not exist in the other paint schemes prior to April, perhaps he flew it as "all red" with EisenKreusen in March. I don't know. Just answer one question I still have:

What plane did Chris Thomas and Stan Stokes paint?

I'd like to identify that plane as: 425/17 (early version) built for MvR.

Thanks,

Art

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by iart7

Very Enlightening, Patrick. THNKX!

. . .

Just answer one question I still have:

What plane did Chris Thomas and Stan Stokes paint?

I'd like to identify that plane as: 425/17 (early version) built for MvR.

Thanks,

Art

I honestly don't know what either artist was thinking or how they came up with that scheme. Why don't you email Stan Stokes himself & ask him how he researched it?

http://www.stokescollection.com/home.html