Hannover CL.III: unit, colors, crew

[Ferreira]

Hi!

I bought a old Hanover CL.III of Airfix, but it came without decals.

I found this profile and would like to know:

1. The unit that belonged CL.III this?

2. In what colors the fuselage was painted?

3. It would be possible to discover the names of the crew of CL.III?

Thank's a lot for your help!

Cheers,
Franklin

[Cigogne]

The painted finish is faulty on this profile. The unit marking, however, is a real marking. I'll have to check on the unit.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ferreiar:
The drawing I presume is intended to be Schlasta 20, but it is not correct. First of all their is record of Schlasta 20 having the Han.Cl.III machines. Schlasta 20 had, Han.Cl.II and Han.Cl.IIIa and at least one Halb.Cl.II aircraft.
The markings were:
1. White nose cowling and rudder.
2. Below the front cabane strut on the fuselage center-line were numbered,
1 to 6 in white paint.
3. The white arrow on the fuselage sides positioned on the center-line.
4. The Han.Cl.II were covered the light lower fabric on the upper surfaces of the wings, upper tailplane, the lower elevators and wheel covers. and plain fabric under the wings, upper tail plane and lower elevators
The sides and top if the fuselage, top of the center-section were painted lozenges in the same colors as on the the lower printed fabric.
5. The Han.Cl.IIIa were covered with five color dark pattern on the upper surfaces of the wings, upper tailplane, lower elevators and wheel covers.
The under surface of the wings, upper tailplane and lower elevators were covered with the light lower pattern five color fabric.
6. Rib tapes matched the upper or lower printeed fabric.
7. The fuselage, center-section and lower stabilizer were painted in lozenges matching the colors of the dark upper five color printed fabric.
8. On 4 October 1918, Han.C.IIIa 3892/18, no.4, of Schlasta 20 was piloted by Uffz.Rudolf Hager (kia) and the gunner was Uffz. Otto Weber.(pow) by American ground fire. This machine was mistakenly credited to Captain E.V. Rickenbecker.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[George Grasse]

The Jim Alley color profile you show comes from his website (Jim Alley's Computer Generated Aircraft Drawings) and cleverly obscures the serial number. However, the aircraft is probably the Hannover CL.II that appears in Windsock Datafile 23 on the Hannover CL.III (photo on inside front cover). The Schusta is unfortunately not identified but the second aircraft from the camera is the subject of his profile. To be sure, you should inquire from him if he knows more about the unit, aircraft, and crew. Four digits of the serial number are shown in his color profile and they appear to be '1632'. Review the serial number list in the Datafile and you will see that none of the Hannover CL.II, CL.III, or CL.IIIa aircraft bore this serial number. Must be artist's license. As to the fuselage color there are three possibilities: one solid color, two or more colors camouflage colors in a random pattern, or hand-painted lozenges to somewhat resemble the lozenge-printed fabric surfaces. I look forward to other postings and hopefully a solution.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

George Grasse:
I don't think you have seen our book, Schlachtflieger! It is well worth the $79.95 price. It covers also the Hannovers Cl aircraft as well as all the aircraft and colors used by the Schusta and Schlasta. It also has the history of each unit, personnel and battle participation. It involved thirty years of research and took six years in writing, 400 pages and weighs in about five pounds. Schiffer is the publisher.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

George Grasse:
I don't think you have seen our book, Schlachtflieger! It is well worth the $79.95 price. It covers also the Hannovers Cl aircraft as well as all the aircraft and colors used by the Schusta and Schlasta. It also has the history of each unit, personnel and battle participation. It involved thirty years of research and took six years in writing, 400 pages and weighs in about five pounds. Schiffer is the publisher.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Thank you Dan-San,

Here's one place to check out:Amazon.com: Used and New: Schlachtflieger!: Germany and the Origins of Air/Ground Support 1916-1918

From $79.95 to $116.80, six books available, all used, but new condition.

Maybe it's time to get one before they go up any more!

Good Luck, FOKKERJ

After a lot of research and thought on this subject, I think that this book is one Helluva deal!
You could buy four DATA FILES (4 x 30 to 40 pages each!) for this price or two out of print. I have actually seen one DATA FILE on ebay go for $80.00 ! Also several for half of that price. Go figure!

[George Grasse]

I am not convinced that grayscale comparison can actually lead to the discovery of the underlying color on the surface of an aircraft under unknown condiditions, using film of unreliable qualities suspect in its portrayel of certain shades, that cannot account for dirt, water, and oil smudges. All of these "spoils" on the aircraft's surface might lead one to believe that a swirling, random pattern of five colors exixts when in fact its one color badly beat up with oil stains, dirt, worn paint, and what not. Of course, time of day, exposure, and the condition of the paint finish on the aircraft. . . . all of these things will alter the conclusion one gets when comparing a current color chart in grayscale to an ancient photograph fraught with ambiguities. The grayscale process brings together two disparate pieces onto a playing field, as it were, and all we have to do is hold up a grayscale Methuen chip until it matchs a grayscale area on the print. "That must be the color, then." Where is the science and proofs?

No one has proven the process by using a modern airplane and duplicating the steps to prove that grayscale is grayscale no matter what you do with it. Again, is there some way to prove the process by photographing an aircraft using the film of the day and then going through all of the steps of photocopying the photos in grayscale; then, matching the photo to the grayscale paint chips? I wonder how they would come out?

I've been fooling around with color for decades and it's either the eyeball or the computer that are going to solve this problem. Anyone have a sprectrophotometer we can use?

George Grasse . . . . color enthusiast.

[vonGoebel]

Squadron mail Order has Schlachtflieger! on sale in this months flyer for $71.96. I just received it yesterday. It is a veritable tome. The captioned photographs, three-views, and color profiles alone were well worth the price. I heartily recommend it for anyone contemplating building any of the German two-seat fighter kits out there.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Goerge Grasse:
I have relied on fabric samples that are held in some of the museums. IThe Imperial War Musuem is one. My good friend Paul Leaman has studied the these fabric samples and has been gracious enough to provide me copies of his studies. Another source is intelligence reports. It is nothing like what I just reviewed by Jim Alley. That is comic book art.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

The camouflage system of the Hannoveraner offered by Dan-San Abbott in the "Schlachtflieger" book is totally wrong.

The best about the Hannoveraner is written by Greg VanWyngarden: "Colors: The Hannoveraner Cl.II, III and IIIa", OTF Volume 12, Number 4, Winter 1997 and by R L Rimell: "Hannoveraner Cl.III, Colours and Markings" Datafile 23, September 1990.

In the last publication you will find the important hint: " Eddie Rickenbacker...refers to the Hannover he helped bring down (3892/18) as black machine" and you will find this important sentence: "...several Hannover factory publication refer to black Hannovers..."

Indeed the Hannoversche Wagonfabrik speaks of their aircraft as "Die schwarzen Hannoveraner"

naja