Wilhelm Schwartz dr1

[Laserlloyd]

I don't know how I missed this thread until now. Dan-San has to be correct. We rely on on these markings to narrow the date of these photos.

The wing stacking pads look to be on the first rib of each wing and this would indicate that the probably is not 193/17. This would put it in the range of 400-599/17. We do know that Ltn. D R Wilhelm Schwartz did fly 193/17 for Jasta 13 as this is what I have in my database But if this listing is based on this photo I think I would have to remove Ltn. D R Wilhelm Schwartz name from 193/17 listing unless there is some other source. Are there any combat reports from J13 that list any of the triplane? I have also checked Rick Duiven research on J13 and no planes listed. I'm a little surprised at the lack of photos and information on J13 as it was part of JGII and the other whell known three Jastsa's in it.

Ltn. D R Wilhelm Schwartz came from Jasta 69 and then was transferred to J13 on May 1 1918 thou Jun 15, 1918 serving as Staffelführer. So the date fits the photo cation but the photo shows a plane that's in the range of 400-599/17.

Unfortunately not that much is know about J13's Dr.I's. Greg you do have another photo showing then flight line of six trips from J13 (pg.17 Jagdgeschwader Nr II Geschwader 'Berthold) and these are completely different from this one because of the rear fuselage being white just like Pippart's Dr.I. back in March.

I would have to say that this photo was taken before March 17th and since 193/17 doesn't show up in are acceptance reports I would place 193/17 being accepted in February 1918.

I would have to question this date on the photo along with actually being 193/17 as you have mentioned also. Since I can't see the axle wing cord and the bottom of the rudder the stacking pads will have to be the tell tale sign of the rage in was in.

I have look at my library and I don't have any other photos of 193/17.

Lloyd...

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi Gentlemen,

Sorry I haven't been able to respond to this until now. From everything I can see on the photo, the wings were the standard streaked camouflage, and I'm fairly certain that the upper wing crosses were still Iron Crosses on white fields. The crosses on the upper wings were the hardest to modify, and since none of the other crosses had been changed (including those on the underside of the bottom wing), it's very doubtful that the upper wing crosses were either. I think I can see just a hint of the white fields on the leading edge of the top wings as well.


As far as the undersides of the fuselage and tailplane, that's anybody's guess. My own opinion would be that both the underside of the tail and fuselage was painted in JG II blue. I don't know the reason that the crosses had not been altered by this date, but the photo caption clearly states this was taken on 15 May 1918. The serial number was probably 193/17.

Greg

Dear Greg,

While I have a deep respect for your wealth of knowledge through years of research,
I disagree that the tail and fuselage undersides would or might be JG II Blue. Is there
any instance of any other JG II machines being painted in this manner to
substantiate this? The only information that I have is that the tops, sides, and bottom
surfaces of the tail and fuselage would be painted in JG II Blue.

I see Light Blue under surfaces, that the ones closer to the ground appear darker than
those above, such as that of the upper and middle wing undersides. I would think that
the doped upper surfaces are reflecting more light upward on the middle and upper wing's
undersides than the ground is on the tail, fuselage, and lower wing. I also believe that
there is a White field with an Eisenkreuse visible on the starboard lower wing that would
match up well with the one on the fuselage side.

I agree with you 100% that the Eisenkreuse on the wings (bottom, then top) would be
changed to Balkenkreuse after the rudder and fuselage crosses had been updated.
Knock out the easy jobs first! More efficient!
I have never seen any fotografs of JG II aircraft with JG II Blue fuselage and tail feathers
with Red, White, Yellow, or Green cowlings with Eisenkreuse, only Balkenkreuse
markings. Is this just a coincidence?
I have seen images of streaked Fokkers in transition with the Eisenkreuse/Balkenkreuse change.
So when did Berthold change the Jagdgeschwader II Battledress colors?
I know the answer is in my books, I guess what I am looking at is that the cross transition
came first followed by Berthold's color change. I believe that's right or we would see
evidence of JG II aircraft with JG II Blue and Eisenkreuse markings.

Thanks for sharing the great foto and intel.

Best Wishes, Jay

P.S. Thank goodness the cowl isn't Chrome Yellow!

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lloyd:
The stacking pads are as you have suggested, indicate that this machine was in the Dr.I 400/17 to DR./I 599/17 serial number range, however there is not a precise break in serial numbers regarding the stacking pads. There are a few DR.I wings scattered in the later range of serial numbers of Dr.I 190/17 to DR.I 220/17 with the stacking pads moved out to the next to last rib position. I am of the opinion the change occured with serial Dr.I 200/17, with a scattering of inboard and outboard postions throughout the Dr.I 190 to DR.I 22017 range of serial numbers. I believe Alex Imrie discusses this in his book, "The Fokker Triplane."
I don't think the engine hood is green, it looks more like what the olive brown shade of grey would be photographically. Check the top cowlings next to the engine cowl, same shade of grey. If the fuselage is over-painted, it is a mighty thin coat of blue paint! The streaking is visible on the side of the fuselage. Check the light center of the right wheel cover, same grey value as the side of the fuselage. It looks to me as Fokker Dr.I newly arrived at Jage Nr.2, (They were not Roman numerals,) awaiting to be assigned and decorated in the Jasta 13 markings, of white cowling and tails. This is just my opinion.
Blue skies,
Dan-San