Otto Klssenberth Sopwith Camel Markings - Page 3

Gregvan · 19 October 2008, 05:21 PM

Russ,

I'm still game, but don't expect any miracles. I'm pretty busy.

Yes, the Camels are listed by serial number. So, as far as I can see, there's no listing of all the Camels that served with No. 3 Naval. That would require one heckuva lot of searching, and I don't have time for that. Maybe Mike Westrop is working ona book on Naval 3, too?

Greg

RussGannon · 21 October 2008, 05:11 PM

Greg

If you have the time here are a few more that might fit the bill:

12 Mar 18 Falkenburg POW B9317 46 Sqn,
13 Mar 18 Heath POW B2525 73 Sqn,
16 Mar 18 Nichols POW B5208 4 AFC,
18 Mar 18 Lee Pow C1567 & Luxmore POW C6720.

All down the general Cambrai area which 17 Armee was taking over.

Cheers Russ

Kirk R. Lowry · 21 October 2008, 09:24 PM

Bonjour Russ,

Perhaps I can take some of the burden from Greg who may well be preparing to meet the parents ...

I have noted the last squadron service and ultimate fate as recorded by Sturtivant and Page.

B9317 - with 46 Squadron as of 5/3/18, "Shot down diving on troops nr Moeuvres 07.00" 12/3/18 "(2/Lt GD Falkenburg PoW - also known as Schleyk according to Germans)".

B2525 - with 73 Squadron as of 2/7/18, crashed on landing "(2/LT CH Howitt unhurt)", to Repair Park 2 ASD; struck off charge?

B5208 - with 4 Squadron, A.F.C. as of 21/2/18, shot down, force landed Annoeullin-Mericourt 10.05 16/3/18 "(2/LT WH Nicholls PoW)".

C1567 - with 3 Squadron from the week ending 24/5/18, possibly mispainted to appear as C1587, overturned landing Fouquerolles 10/6/18 "(2/Lt JF Fleet unhurt)", to Repair Park 2, Aeroplane Supply Depot 11/6/18, rebuilt as F6083 3/7/18.

C6720 - with 54 Squadron from 15/3/18, failed to return from an operation 10.10, last seen in combat 2 miles east of Busigny, 18/3/18 "(Capt FL Luxmoore PoW)".

So would that leave the following as possibilities in any way; B9317, B5208, C6720?

Discouragingly, a photograph of the Sopwith Camel flown by

Otto Kissenberth is to be found in The Camel File, but, the only identification given is "A captured Camel of No.3 Naval Squadron at Epinoy airfield around April/May 1918. It was flown by Otto Kissenberth of Jasta 23b, who achieved his 20th victory when he shot down an S.E.5a in it at Tilloy on 16 May 1918."

Kirk

Gregvan · 21 October 2008, 09:27 PM

Russ,

Here's the short answer. You gave me a couple of red herrings, which required more digging on my part:

B9317 - only served in 46 Sqdn

B2525 - 73 Sqdn only - the Camel File says it crashed on landing on 22.8.18 (2/Lt CH Howitt unhurt), and went to Repair Park 2 ASD and was apparently struck off charge - no mention of Heath flying it or being POW in it. HOWEVER, on 13.3.18, Lt EE Heath of No 73 Sqdn was shot down and taken POW in B2523; no mention of any other squadron, and it says it possibly came down in flames.

B5208 - served in No 46 Sqdn before being repaired and going to No 4 Sqdn AFC.

C1567 - No. 3 Sqdn RAF, overturned on landing on 10.6.18, rebuilt as F6083. Never came down in German lines. Your pilot 2/Lt E B Lee of No. 54 Sqdn was actually taken PoW in C1576 on 18.3.18 - which never served anywhere but in 54 Sqdn.

C6720 - served only in 54 Sqdn before Capt FL Luxmoore was taken POW in it.

No joy for No 3 Naval Sqdn, Russ.

Greg

Kirk R. Lowry · 21 October 2008, 10:03 PM

Greg et Russ

Just wondering ... I notice that C1615 of 3 Squadron was flown by D.J. Bell when shot down on the 24th of March, 1918, to quote Sturtivant and Page, "by enemy infantry" which was "burnt by [the] pilot who managed to reach British lines". Is there a report or an account of the incident ... could it have been that the Sopwith Camel was abandoned, but, not actually burnt?

B5437 of 3 Squadron flown by J.O. Butler was lost the same day and was listed as one which failed to return. The pilot became a prisoner of war and later died of wounds but the fate of the aircraft does not appear to be known ...

Could it be either of those that

Otto Kissenberth flew?

Kirk

RussGannon · 22 October 2008, 08:26 PM

Greg & Kirk

Sorry about C1576 & Lee - sloppy notes on my part. As these are all drawing blanks, I guess the silly question is: how does Hopewell's 8 Naval Camel downed on 7 Apr 18 stack up in regards service?

Cheers Russ

Gregvan · 22 October 2008, 08:50 PM

Russ,

We may have a winner!

According to '

TSTB', FS/Lt. D. C. Hopewell was taken POW in Camel B6417 on 7 April '18, forced to land NE of Loos around 1210 PM. The book gives possible credit to Billik of Jasta 52.

According to "The Camel File,", B6417 was delivered to Aeroplane Park Dover on 27.10.17. On 29 December 1917, it went to No 3 Naval Sqdn. Flying B6417, F/Lt. L. D. Bawlf claimed an Albatros OOC at Thourout-Dixmude at 11.40 on 18 February 1918. It then went to 8 Naval Sqdn on 1 March 1918, which became 208 Sqdn on 1 April 1918, of course. It was shot down in a general engagement on 7 April, forced to land NE of Loos, etc. This could be Kissenberth's Camel, perhaps....

Greg

RussGannon · 23 October 2008, 05:16 PM

Greg

I guess I have to eat humble pie - as B6417 2Lt Hopewll POW was the one postulated in the C&C Int Captured Camel article in your earlier post.

I was too clever for myself, doubting that a Camel brought down by a 6 Armee pilot (Billik for sure) in 6 Armee area could end up in a 17 Armee Jasta. However this looks to be the case and I would say through our process of elimination that B6417 has to be our elusive Camel.

Good work Greg.

StephenLawson · 25 October 2008, 07:46 PM

Excellent research!

RussGannon · 30 October 2008, 05:21 PM

Gregvan & anyone else who is interested.

The most recent Australian War Memorial - magazine (issue 44) had a few interesting articles re the WW1 air war with some points you might find of interest.

First there was an article on Cecil Molle Feez. This states that Feez when returning from a low mission was attacked by 3 Albatros scouts on 28 Mar 18 - the article correctly identifying Js 52. Feez recieved a bullet in the thigh & his petrol tank was shot through. Later he was involved in an unsuccessful escape attempt from Holzminden POW camp in Sep 18. The bullet taken from his thigh was donated to AWM.

Another article was 'The Ghost Plane' - about the 3 AFC RE8 crewed by Lt Sandy & Sgt Hughes that was attacked by 6 Albatros scouts of Js 29on 17 Dec 17. The crew being killed in the encounter, but the plane flying on for another 75 km before running out of fuel and crash landing near St Pol. No dout you know the story. The combat saw Alb DVa 5390/17 brought down in Allied Lines. Pointedly it gives the full name for the Js 29 pilot - the present wisdom has only up to now been to identify him as Ltn Clauss - the article reveals his full name was Ltn Rudolf Clausz. Maybe you could pass that on to Rick, if he is not looking in on this thread. There is also a colour photo of his fur lined boots which were confiscated and are now part of the AWM collection. These were not on display, the last time I visted the AWM circa 1989. These are not to be confused with MvR's boots. It would also appear that both Alb DVa 5390/17 & the Pfalz DXII have undergone recent restoration work and are about to return to the main display.

The main thrust of the magazine was the recent discovery of a mass grave - possibly containg remains of 400 Australian & Brit troops killed within German lines during the battle of Fromelles 19-20 July 1916 and buried at the time by 6 Bavarian Div.

Cheers Russ

Cheers Russ.