Albert Ball's Nieuport Ni16 A134

[PrzemoL]

Hello. I have a question concerning the above mentioned A134. Can anybody shed some light on the possible underside colour - was it CDL? If so, did this plane feature the bright outlines on the flying and control surfaces? If yes, what was their colour.
I know the photo of this plane but unfortunately it does not show the upper side of wings and stabilizer. I realize it may be impossible to find another photo of A134 but maybe there were some reliable painting rules for Ni16 used in RFC?
Any help welcome. Thank you in advance.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour PrzemoL

While not being an expert on Royal Flying Corps paint schemes, I would doubt that the underside surfaces of Nieuport 16 A134 had any colour applied to the clear doped linen, with the exception of the insignia, and do not believe that the flying or control surfaces were trimed by a bright colour.

Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF service, compiled and published by Cross & Cockade International, features a profile of A134 as well as a five view of A126 (flown by H.V.C. de Crespigny with 11 Squadron) and both portrayals indicate clear doped linen underside surfaces and neither depicts the flying or control surfaces with trim of a bright colour.

The book referred to includes a photograph of A134, presumably the one you made reference to which depicts a man in the cockpit and two men before the engine, and the image would seem to support the statement made above.

Salut!
Kirk

[PrzemoL]

Many thanks, Kirk, for your contribution.
I accept the suggestion for the underside colour or should I say the lack of any colour.
However the statement of no trimming on the upper surfaces does not convince me so easily. I wonder if there is any photographic evidence for it in the Cross and Cockade publication you mentioned. The very photo of A134 with a pilot and two mechanicians at the engine does not help at all in this matter. But in the Windsock on Nieuport Fighters on the same page just under the A134 photo is a photo of a camouflaged Ni16 No.5172 moved from RNAS to RFC with the upper side of the lower wing quite visible. And I would say there is a bright trimming present. Could they leave strips of unpainted CDL on the upper sides????
Honestly speaking I rather expected a confirmation of this bright trimming. Your statement puzzled me and makes me think more about it. From a practical point of view I would prefer no trimming since its realization in a 1/72nd scale model I am just working on seems quite tricky for me.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour PrezmoL!

Right, if you have examined Nieuport Fighters Volume 1 by Bruce you will note that some of the aircraft appear to have painted trim, no marked trim ... or trim that cannot actually be determined ... the wings of Nieuports reflect light in a variety of ways!

I do not think that A136 had trim painted in a bright colour because the photograph (which we have referred to) does not indicate such marking and because such marking would be adverse to the existing camouflage ... admittedly neither of those reasons are, in any way, conclusive though.

It may have been that the edges of the flying surfaces were covered by leather tape of some sort (such is known to be the case with aircraft produced by Nieuport-Macchi) which on A136 was not painted but, however, would reflect light differently than the doped linen ... perhaps the edge was tan in colour ... That stated, Bruce notes in Nieuport 17, that on aircraft with camouflage colours applied over aluminum finish "narrow borders of the original alumminium were often left on flying and control surfaces to leave an outlined appearance, the practiacal purpose of which remains unclear". Either may be correct ... or not ...

I simply cannot see someone taking the time and making the effort to add, say, a red trim to the aircraft and imagine that A136 was flown essentially as received though there does not appear to be a definitive answer as to how that was ...

Really PrezmoL, I think you would be wise to paint the model the way you wish to as it does not seem as though anyone will be able to prove you wrong!

Salut!
Kirk

[PrzemoL]

Hello Kirk!
Again, thank you for your time and efforts to help me.
I think I got a conclusion satisfying me, finally. What I did after reading your last post was to look through all the photos of camouflaged Nieuports. I have not found a single one with visible upper surfaces that had not featured the bright trimming (except for a Finnish one). I looked at some close-ups I could find and I assume that most of the airplanes had the edges reinforced with a tape (linen most probably). It is also visible on some photos of RNAS bright finished machines. The colour dividing line is so straight that it must be an edge og a tape or so. Thus in the case of Ni11/16 it would be most probably CDL and in the case of Ni17 -enduit metallise. I fully agree that painting of such a trimming would be nonsense. But a tape does seem to explain the look and to be reasonably justified.
So I have decided to depict the CDL trimming on my Ni16 model. As you put it, most certainly nobody will be able to prove I am wrong.
Thank you for the discussion!