Tracing Lozenge

[Dan_San_Abbott]

'18aviation collector:
I cannot accept a distorted pattern, an inch?, three inches?, whatever, distorted is distorted. It did not come out of the Neue Augsburger Kattunfabrik distorted, it came out square on the roll. The distortion arises when the workers attached the fabric the the wings,m fuselage or tails. If you are willing to accept a distorted pattern, are you willing to accept the wrong colors? I am not.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Hal Oele]

Hi Folks,

please have a look in following published book:

Marian Krzyzan/ Holger Steinle:
Die Halberstadt Cl.IV D-IBAO
Zeugen der Luftfahrtgeschichte
Verlag E.S. Mittler & Sohn GmbH
Herford und Bonn 1992

You will find on page 85 a color photograph of original and reprinted Flugzeugstoff compared, in full width, surrounded by Peter Grosz, Prof.Dr. Holger Steinle and Manfred Thiemeyer. Also a photograph of the late Jack Hilliard and Robert Mikesh with original Flugzeugstoff.
See also page 98.

Peter M. Grosz in
WWI AERO #129, Aug 1990, page 59:
"... we had a brainstorming session attended by the whole staff. We were
able to answer a lot of questions and in essence determine the course of the
next six month of work. Manfred Thiemeyer had come from Cologne to present
his research on camouflage fabric, supported by color slides. The extent of
his research left us gaping. Not only had Manfred visited the company that
first produced the original fabric, but also had determined the exact dyes
used..."

Greetings
Hal

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Sorry Dan-San, I am totally confused! I don't think I disagreed with you, I would actually like to see printed fabric reproduced as accurately as possible. I am actually a perfectionist, probably too much so and I don't mean anyone any harm, I just carry out research that I hope will contribute to accurate restoration and replica projects. There is no doubt a lot which has been written on this subject, and I have not been through the archives to find every word that has been written. I am just trying to help those who are putting questions forward, where I believe I have information which will help them. The Neue Augsburger Kattunfabrik that you mentioned, is that the factory where printed fabric was produced? I would actually assume that printed fabric was produced at a single factory, given the fact that as I have stated many times, I have always found the colours from sample to sample to be remarkably consistent. I don't want to see fabric produced with an incorrect pattern or colours. We have all seen this so many times, and yet when primary references become available, often the accepted knowledge is proven wrong, sometimes very much so.

Hi Hal,

Thank you very much for the references! I certainly don't mean to forget about or push aside any such references. They are absolutely important, and if I had that book, I would have a look at it. There is no end to the knowledge any of us can acquire, and I will have a look for that book, I would love to see that article! I don't have every copy of WW1 Aero, and if I don't have it, I will try to find it. There are numerous references to printed fabric, and these sound like excellent references. Thanks Hal.

[MicroSculpt]

Gentleman:

Yes. I think we all have the same basic goal. To research Flugzeugstoff.

The impetus behind this thread is to determine if the patterns that are accepted today can be made to match the patterns on actual airframes.

I totally agree that squaring the fabric of a variety of samples — that were not applied to airframes — would be ideal. Otherwise, after it is stretched and doped the pattern is distorted.

That said, how many pieces of documented "virgin" Flugzeugstoff are there? I assume there must be at least one, as the referenced in the Die Halberstadt Cl.IV D-IBAO book? Others?

I still maintain that tracing the patterns from airframes might have some merit. If the pattern is distorted, it should be possible to distort it back. The relationship between the points of intersection on the pattern would remain relative as the pattern is distorted. Very unscientific, I know. But basically sound?

Or, conversely, taking the generally established patterns and distorting them to match what is traced from the airframe.

Finally, how many matching samples does it take to conclusively establish a definitive layout?


Dan:

When you did your examinations, where they performed on samples that were un-doped or varnished? I assume so, because of your ability to square them.

How many samples did you examine and compare?

Did all the samples contain the entire repeat of the pattern?

How are you certain there was only one mill producing Flugzeugstoff?


Cheers!

Tom

[Maxim08]

A quick note. Several of the posts in this thread refer to the NASM polygon fabric drawing. If you read the credits on the drawing you will see that the colour reference came from Bob Bradford and the pattern ie the actual tracing from the original was by Fred Shortt.
Both of these individuals were key players in the early days of Canada's national aviation collection. Bob was (is?) a noted aviation artist who defined the Methuen references used by both NASM and the NAM when they created thier fabrics. Fred traced the pattern mostly from fabric wrapping the spars of wing #2071. This was done in 1975.
While Mikesh redrafted the NAM information, I like to think of this as Canadian content and not just NASM information.
Regards,
John

[jumpinjan]

Originally Posted by Maxim08

...who defined the Methuen references

John, I think you meant Munsell color codes? I have the NASM book too and they list Munsell codes.
Jan

[Dan_San_Abbott]

'18viationcollector:
Maybe I misunderstood your posting, please accept my apology if I have offended you. There is and article I wrote for WW1 Aero in the article section of the Forum, you may find it interesting.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Dan-San,

No problem. I am sure I have offended people at times, and I can assure you it is never intentional. As Tom said, we all have the same aim, to research Flugzeugstoff. Tom asked if anyone had traced the Canberra fabric and I said yes I have. I know what you mean Dan-San, samples such as the many samples I have seen over the years are not ideal, since generally they have been applied to an airframe, and I agree, Flugzeugstoff was applied quite roughly. It tends to be pulled at awkward angles, and is more often that not distorted during the process of being fixed to the airframe. The tracing I photographed is no doubt not perfect, but it is a guide, and it shows many differences from previously published drawings. As Tom said, I can't see how any amount of distortion could possibly make the NASM drawing fit the traced pattern I photographed. This could mean that there was more than one pattern, but who knows? I guess that's why we're all here, to try to figure that out. Cheers, David.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Microsculpt:
Fortunmately, the two samples of the four color and five color fabrics were from the fuselage of Fok.D.VII aircraft, the Four color was mine and the five color was another individual fabrics that was kind enough to loan them to me. All four pieces had complete repeats and and were upper and lower dark and light patterns, and I was able to to establish the the full widt of the pattern.On the fuselages only two coat of dope were applied and the top varnish waterproofing coat. On all of the samples there was very little dope and varnish left, and what remained was very flaky. Because of this condition of the fabric I was able to restore the samples to their original woven state and square them on my drawing table.
Once the yarn of the fabric was square, 90º to each other, and taped to the table I drew a 300mm by 300mm grid by chasing either the warp (lengthwise, pattern repeat) or the filling yarn (width of the fabric) with a pencil.
Then metric measurements were taken on the x (lengthwise) and y axis across the width to establish the polygon patterns. Full scale drawings were made of both the four and five patterns.
I worked with Ross Walton of Vintage Aero Fabrics, Ltd used my patterns and colors in the developement of his four and five color fabrics. It took a considerable effort on our (Ross and I) part, to get the printer to get the colors correct.
In a directive from IdFlieg to the aircraft manufacturers , IdFlieg states they are to obtain the fabric from Neue Augburger Kattunfabrik, Augsburg to purchase the fabric and also where to purchase matt covering dope. Both were single sources.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Nice work Dan-San! I have a couple of questions for you. You state that Vintage Aero Fabrics Ltd produced fabric using your research. Is it available for purchase? How did the five colour pattern compare to the tracing that I photographed? Is it similar, or is it closer to the drawing in the NASM book? Were both sets of samples similar to each other, or did they vary considerably? Given that most of us would not be able to realistically afford to purchase full pattern samples of the fabric they produced from your research, has your research been published anywhere? Forgive me if you have already provided an answer to this question, if you have, I must have missed it. Cheers, David.