Tracing Lozenge

[MicroSculpt]

Dan-San:

Thank you for the additional info. It sounds as if you did your usual thorough and precise job. It is hard to dispute when you count individual threads! We are all appreciative of your efforts.

Have your findings been validated by a similar squaring of different fabric samples by another researcher? ... And I pose that question most respectfully. It merely seems that corroboration of your findings by an independent party would provide verification of your research.

David:

Your tracings of the Knowlton airframe would be valuable in developing a map of how the aiframe was covered. Similar to those in the Albatros Publication's Fokker D.VII Anthologies. I don't have those publications at hand at the moment. I do recall a brief article on the Knowlton sample — but I can't recall if there was a drawing based on the lozenge layout. I think not.


Everyone:

Is anyone aware of samples of original Flugzeugstoff that are in a "virgin" state? i.e. as it came as a bolt of fabric. Does the reference cited by Hal indeed contain an allusion to such a "virgin" sample? I vaguely seem to recall a mention of a bolt of original Flugzeugstoff that had been discovered in Europe.

BTW, is anyone cataloging all samples of fabric as they are presented? I know I always snatch images off the Aerodrome whenever they are posted. But is there a comprehensive image collection anywhere to study? It seems that might be a valuable venture. I'd be happy the host such a collection on my site MicroSculpt.com: Online shop for scale model decals, figures and upgrades..

I suppose another question that arises from the distortion of the pattern, is whether it is possible to accurately depict Flugzeugstoff on a model? It seems the distortion would make each airframe unique. In 1/72 this may be moot, however distortions would be more apparent in larger scales.

More questions and more questions ...

Cheers!

Tom

[Hans]

I own some from 5-col-underside, but the pieces are too small. They were cut into pieces as backings for photographic prints. But I also know that there a various larger pieces around in collector's hands. But as usual, these collectors are sitting on them like the hen on the eggs and don't publish them.

The Berlin samples, as far as I understood the process, where not traced in situ, but from spread-out samples, so there should not be any distortion.

H

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hans:
From what I read in "WW1 AERO",the pattern was developed from fabric from a Halb.Cl.IV lower wing. They sent Leo Opdyke a piece of the their fabric for his review, he sent it to me and asked for a report.
The pattern was printed on cotton fabric, not linen.
The fabric was wider than the 1500 mm wide printed pattern,
The pattern was faked on one side for 150mm wide.
The maximum width allowed by IdFlieg was 1350mm wide+or- 10mm.
The was a larger bow in the pattern, which resulted in distorted polygons.
The fabric was applied on Halb.Cl.II and Cl.IV wings at 45º to the leading edge. When the fabric was attached to the wings and on a bias, the fabric was distorted, after doping it became fixed. When they copied the pattern the distortion was established on the MVT five color pattern. I still have the fabric sample Leo sent me. Maybe Manfred will jump in on this.
Just a little history.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Hal Oele]

Hi Folks,

after a telephone call with Manfred Thiemeyer he like to fullfill the wish of Dan-San Abbott.
Hal


"Maybe Manfred will jump in on this."

Dan-San,

you know best that I am banned from this Forum. If you are interested use your influence to stop the ban.

And now for the sake of history: when I became aware what was going on in the USA behind my back with my research of Flugzeugstoff, I've stopped all information around 1992. I am not sitting like the hen on the egg - I am only protecting my work until the time is right for a safe publication. Your statement "The maximum width allowed by Idflieg was 1350 mm wide+or- 10 mm" is very interesting and I would like to know the source of information. Most of the original Flugzeugstoff I am aware is between 1500 mm and 1400 mm wide. Please remember: "Flugzeugstoff" is the name I established here sometimes ago for the incorrect name "Lozenge".

MT

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Manfred:
I dislike the use of the term "Lozenge", it is not a correct term. I use irregular polygon printed fabric.
I have found a aircraft covered with fabric wider the 1350 mm. Albatros used 1300 mm wide fabric. I have never seen a pattern wider that 1350mm on any aircraft. The pattern you engineered" of 1400mm wide was faked on one edge 150mm wide. I glad you originated the term "Flugzeugstoff". When I use the German term, I use the IdFlieg term, "Flugelstoff".
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Hans]

The pattern was printed on cotton fabric, not linen.

Dan-San, do I understand this right that the original fabric from the Halberstadts was cotton? Or do you mean that the new sample was printed on cotton?

The Museum in Berlin state clearly that they used linen fabric for all three restaurations....

Hans

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hans:
On the MVT fabric was cotton. The fabric on the Halbstadt was linen.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[MicroSculpt]

Gentlemen:

OK. Not to fuel the fire, but I think this needs further clarification.

We have two terms here — Flugzeugstoff and Flugelstoff. I believe the first translates as "Plane Fabric" the other "Wing Fabric". Which term is documented in period records?

Dan-San I think you said that the Idflieg used the term Flugelstoff. That makes sense, as it is a more precise term, referring to the material covering the flying surfaces only. I do not have access to original records. Can you prove this?

Hal (or Manfred) can you provide documentation of the Idflieg using the term Flugzeugstoff from original documents?

I have decal products described as Flugzeugstoff that I just released. I used the term since I thought it was correct. If this term is incorrect, I need to know so I can correct the site and future releases. I do hope this can be resolved simply by providing a copy of an original Idflieg document.

With good intentions,

Tom

[MicroSculpt]

Hal/Manfred:

I just reread your post. The term Flugzeugstoff is a term Manfred created? It is not a term from historical documents?

Tom

[Hans]

Dan-San,

when one of the Halberstadts was in Oberschleissheim / Munich, we had the chance to compare the material used with an original larger piece a friend of mine owns ( 5-col; lower side). We can't see or feel any difference - only the colors were 'deeper' due doping.

Also the MVT itself cleary states that linen has been used.

I know that judging from photographs is nearly impossibly, but I have never seen any cotton material with such a structure.

So maybe your sample was printed on cotton just as a sample for the printing process?

H