Tracing Lozenge

[MicroSculpt]

Greetings, everyone!

The quest for definitive information on lozenge patterns continues ...

Who has actually traced lozenge? I mean placed vellum over the printed fabric and traced the outline of each lozenge? And done this on a variety of samples?

Has anyone made tracings from the Knowlton D.VII?

Do all traced samples match? I mean after minor correction for distortion?

It may be valuable to compare tracings to determine if there were any variations.

Your thoughts?

Tom

[Maxim08]

I have a tracing from #3659 with Methuen colour references. This was traced by Fred Shortt of the Canadian National Aeronautical Collection in the 1970s.
My Knowlton tracing is around somewhere.
Anyone know how to convert a Group 4 TIFF into a useable JPEG? Neither Photoshop or a couple of other image editors or Irfanview will create anything other than a blank image. My scan of the Shortt drawing prints very well but I can't convert to share with you.
I don't know about any others but someone must have traced the Canberra fabric.
Regards,
John

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi, yes I have traced quite a few pieces of lozenge fabric, when it was available. The best advice I can give you is that any variations are relatively minor, but there do seem to be variations. Whether these variations were due to different manufacturers who interpreted the layout of pattern slightly differently to each other, variations in the way the fabric was placed through the rollers or the way the fabric was pulled at awkward angles during fixing to the air frame, I have never been able to work that out. It seems to me that the size and the shape of the lozenges can vary more than expected, even with samples which are clearly from the same aeroplane. Overall one piece seems to be exactly the same as the next until you look more closely. My research has shown that lozenge was applied quite roughly. No two aeroplanes were the same, and as most of us know, there were countless exceptions to the rules when the fabric was applied. The width of the pattern can vary too, not by much, as with the variations in the pattern and sizes of the lozenges, but by enough to cause some confusion if you are not aware that there were various pattern widths. The thing that confuses me is that despite the differences in pattern, the colours, with the exception of the yellowish brown on the upper surface are remarkably consistent between different samples. It can vary between yellowish brown and a light brownish yellow. I even noted that on one sample, it varied from a dark to a light shade within two revolutions of the rollers! I do have plenty of photos and tracings, but as with all of my research, finding it is not always easy! The biggest challenge I have is that it all needs to be collated. I spend most of my time collecting and keeping a record of photos, badges, flying helmets and pieces of aeroplanes where possible (for dimensions, colour references and because they are historically significant relics), and relatively little time collating it. There is only so much time and money available. I really need a decent space to set it all up in, so that I and others can view it when required. I will see what I can come up with. I have been able to get my digital camera working, which is a very good start!

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi, well I have jsut taken some digital photos of one of my many tracings. This tracing is dated 1990, but I also saw the date 1987 on it, so I don't know which one is correct. I might have started it in 1987 and added to it in 1990, I don't remember. I hope these photos turn out ok. I photographed it in 3 steps, left to right with hopefully easily enough overlap to get the whole pattern. I have quite a few tracings, but this is the only one I can find, at least easily which is dark enough to photograph reasonably well. Some of my tracings are very light or incomplete due to the fact that the fabric when removed was sometimes left in large peces and other times was cut up into small pieces. At one time I drew these pieces in 1:48 scale, showing the location of each piece on the airframe, but I am currently unable to locate this drawing. Without physically laying the tracings over an original structure, or an accurate replica structure, I am unable to determine where some of the pieces were located on the airframe. This piece I believe is from the underside of the top wing, possibly the starboard wing tip. Where structures or features such as ribs or fittings were present, I traced these in as much detail as I possibly could. I doubt any of these will show up in the photos, but I traced them because they could help to work out where on the airframe each particular piece of fabric was originally located. I hope this is of some help.

[MicroSculpt]

John:

Thanks for the reply. It sounds as if you have some good stuff.

I had never heard of a Group 4 tiff. But a quick google came up with this as a possible way to convert:

How to convert Group3 and Group4 Fax files into TIFF format?

I do not know if it would be useful. Let me know.

If not, perhaps we can figure something else out.

Cheers!

Tom

[MicroSculpt]

'14-'18aviationcollector:

Thank you very much for your response! The tracings are exactly the sort of thing I'm seeking! I think your photos turned out well.

If possible, I hope to collect a number of various tracing and overlay them in Adobe Illustrator or Photoshop, using layers, to see the variations and play with distorting each tracing to see if they will all match up.

I totally agree with you about the different shapes of the hexagons. That is what got me started on this. The shapes on the fuselages never quite seemed to match the "accepted" pattern that appears in Albatros publications. I'm not saying the patterns are wrong, but I just want to understand how they could seem to differ.

This is a good start. Thanks.

BTW, what sample was this traced from?

Tom

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Tom,

No problem! I am very happy that I have been able to help! I have a lot of information on lozenge fabric, and I have always intended to carry out an in depth study of it, but I have to admit it will be a huge task, and one I really should not take on just yet. Instead, if I ever see any requests such as yours, I try to help as much as I possibly can. It's great that the photos turned out well! I clicked on them and enlarged them, and yes I think it is possible to see quite a bit of detail. I should be able to help you with at least a few pattern variations. All I ever ask of anyone is to be patient, please! Most people are, and are understanding, and I don't mind how many reminders you have to give me! I am understanding too, and wish I could do more. The only reason I don't do more research and publishing is that I have many other issues to deal with at the moment, as I think we all do. This forum is great because I can post bits and pieces as time and other constraints permit, without any pressure. I have just located my copy of the NASM Albatros D.Va restoration book, and have turned to page 71, where they have published a diagram of the pattern they used for their reproduction lozenge fabric. I was just looking at a copy of the photos I posted, and as you will see, the angles on some of the lozenges are completely different to the NASM sample, but overall it is obviously the same pattern. I am sure that the NASM would have traced their lozenge correctly, given the fact that I have noticed many such variations between different samples. You will probably also notice that the so called "Canberra" lozenge fabric has a slightly wider pattern than the NASM pattern. I think that once I go through my tracings in detail I will find many variations within the so called "Canberra" pattern. The name really is just a generalisation I think. If my memory serves me correctly, there were some variations in pattern to be found even on the same aeroplane!

I think lozenge is a fascinating subject. No two aeroplanes were covered in the same way, in the same way that no two aeroplanes had exactly the same Fokker streaky green applied to them, and given good enough photos, it should be possible to identify any given aeroplane. The catch is that photos are usually not of sufficient quality or quantity to allow this to happen. There are countless unpublished photographs out there, and sites such as this one combined with the efforts of its members are slowly bringing many of them out of the wood work. I hope to be able to become another author, but for the meantime I am very happy to help with requests when they arise.

I have also wondered why the pattern seems to differ on different samples, especially given that the colours are generally remarkably consistent. If I showed you samples from five or more different aeroplanes, you would see that the colours do not vary very much, but the pattern does or at least can, when the samples are large enough to obtain the pattern, which is of course very rare and difficult to find these days. The digital photos I posted are of the fabric from the AWM's Pfalz D.XII, D2600'18. I believe from some features that I traced onto this drawing that it is from the underside of the top wing, probably from the starboard wing tip. I realised after I posted them that I had not mentioned this. Most of the tracings I have are from this aeroplane, and I was able to get a very nice tracing and some photos of a very nice piece of Albatros D.Va fabric, from D.5390'17 of course. I have tracings and photos, but finding them could take me some time unfortunately! I drew as much of this as I could in 1:48th scale in the early 1990's or so, but I think I made a few mistakes, and I am not sure where this drawing is.

Thanks for the encouragement Tom, I really appreciate it! ... and of course I am very happy that I have been able to be of some help. There is a lot more to come!

Cheers, David.

[MicroSculpt]

David:

Great minds think alike! I too had located the NASM lozenge drawing and immediately compared it to your tracing. As you state, while it is generally the same pattern, some individual hexagons have different angles! This is remarkable considering the rest of the pattern matches fairly well. IMHO no amount of distortion could make those hexagons match the other pattern without grossly distorting the entire tracing. VERY INTERESTING!

While it will take many other tracings to prove this point (I'll post the comparisons once I have a larger group to compare) — what could we deduce if it is conclusively proven that there ARE geometric inconsistencies?

I think it could prove that there were different manufacturing mills producing lozenge. And that each mill produced a slightly different product. Slightly different colors? Slightly different fabric widths? Different varieties were used by different manufacturers? All speculation at this point, but the possibilities are intriguing.

I think the study of the actual structure of lozenge patterns is a vast area of study in its own right. While comparisons to other tracings are yet to be made, which would provide more information, this is a fascinating beginning. A TRUE MYSTERY!

No great hurry. Good things come to he who waits.

Thank you for sharing. I look forward to whatever you or anyone else can bring to this discussion in the future.

Cheers!

Tom

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
You can not trace a printed fabric, accurately, (incorrectly called lozenge, a lozenge is a four sided geometric figure, a diamond) the problem is when the fabric is put on an air frame, it gets distorted, thereby distorting the printed geometric figures on the fabric, once it is doped, the skewed pattern then is fixed.
In order to re-establish the accurate pattern, the warp and filling yarns must be squared to its original condition of being 90º to each other. When I was developing my full size patterns of the four and five color patterns, the fabric yarns were re-oriented to the their 90º original condition by squaring the fabric into 300mm grid. Once the stretched fabric is squared, the printed figures can be accurately measured.
The pattern made at the MVT Museum in Germany is seriously distorted has a large bow in the pattern, the result is all the polygons are skewed.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Dan-San,

I know what you mean and I have noticed it too. The polygon fabric (you are correct it is not a lozenge but that is what it is commonly known as) does distort when it is applied to an airframe. Have a look at the tracing I photographed and compare it to the drawing in the NASM book. There are a number of differences, which although relatively minor are still inconsistencies. I have often wondered too if the weave of the fabric needs to be straightened out to obtain a more accurate pattern, and as I am sure you will have noticed Dan-San (and others who have traced lozenge fabric) that the weave does tend to be skewed in many different directions, not necessarily by much, but it is rarely if ever straight. I have also wondered whether or not the fabric tended to distort as it went through the rollers, which would of course create further complications. How does my tracing compare to the pattern you came up with for five colour lozenge? The reason I did not stretch the fabric to straighten the weave is that most of the samples I have ever had access to have still had their original dope and / or varnish on them, which I think is well and truly worth preserving. I think I have seen or heard somewhere, it might have been Sheppo who told me, that the varnish was applied at some time after manufacture. It would make sense that fabric was doped and maybe not varnished, although if it was varnished, it may have been a very thin coat or two. I am aware that the dope eventually eats the fabric, but still, at least for the moment I am very happy when I see samples still in their original dope. What is the MVT fabric, is that the fabric that the NASM used? I thought that someone found some original rollers, as well as some original, un-printed fabric, or am I horribly mistaken?

Tom, I agree. I don't think that any amount of distortion could make one pattern fit the other either. Not only do some of the polygons have different angles to each other, there are quite a few differences. The entire pattern is skewed differently in different places, and some of the shapes just aren't very similar to each other in terms of size, shape and general appearance. There could have been different mills producing lozenge fabric, I just don't know, but as I have stated, the colours are remarkably consistent from one sample to another, generally speaking, which would tend to indicate that it was all made by the same manufacturer, although it could just mean that the colours were very tightly controlled for quality. There are certainly at least two common widths for the fabric, although there could have been more than two of course.