Imperial German Cockades

[Mark Turner]

I am currently reading Echoes of Eagles by Charles Woolley with Bill Crawford in which there is an account of Bill Colson encountering a Fokker with Imperial German Cockades instead of crosses for national insignia. Due to the markings he initially mistook it for an Allied plane.

Has anyone heard of these type of markings before? Or even know who the pilot might have been?

Best Regards
Mark

[Bluedevil]

I don't know about German cockades but I do know that in the beginning of the war , Belgian Ace Jan Olieslagers has flown with cockades that were painted inside out : instead of an outer red circle they showed an outer black circle, inner yellow circle and red center...
This made it look a lot like the German national flag...which lead to a couple of misunderstandings...
But I don't know if this is related to your question...

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Bluedevil:
The German flag color under Kaiser Wilhelm II, was black, white and red not red yellow and black. Prior to WW1, the Fliegertruppe discussed national national markings, one of which was a black, white and red cockade. It was not adopted.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Bluedevil]

Dan-San,

I stand corrected .. as far as the German national flag goes...
The fact remains that Olieslagers turned the Belgian cockades inside -out at the beginning ( I think I've read this in Willy Coppens' "Une Figure De proue: Jan Olieslagers" but it might have been somewhere else...I should check this )

However you must admit that, seen from an other aircraft at some distance, the difference between white and yellow could have lead to some doubtfull situations ...
But as you state that the Germans never used cockades ( and I do not doubt that ) obviously both facts are not related and this is just one of those funny but trivial facts...

[crankcase]

Originally Posted by Bluedevil

However you must admit that, seen from an other aircraft at some distance, the difference between white and yellow could have lead to some doubtfull situations ...

You can say the same for black and blue, with the result that the Romanian flag can be mistaken for Belgian! But at least they were on the same side in the war!

Before the cockade system was introduced, I believe the British Expeditionary Force painted Union jacks on their wings. I leave it to your imagination what the st. george cross may have looked like to people on the ground. Or were all infantry simply trigger happy in the early days?
marc

[Bluedevil]

True: the Romanian and Belgian flag can easiy be mistaken for each other.. As a matter of fact I used a black felt-tipped marker to "adjust" some Wings -of -war gaming cards to get some extra aircraft in my "air -force"

the "Aviation Militaire Belge" simply wrote " Armee Belge " on the underside of the wings of its first aircraft...unless you were near-sighted no mistake was possible...unless you came from above with the sun in your back...

[lonestarson]

In his book "Fighting the Flying Circus", Eddie Rickenbacker writes of encountering a German plane with black and white cockades instead of crosses. Also, in "High in the Empty Blue" there are a couple of accounts of the pilots of 56 Squadron, RFC/RAF encountering German planes with very small black crosses inside white circles.

[Hans]

I always wondered about the reason changing from the Eisernes Kreuz to the Balkenkreuz. It was stated that the EK could be mistaken for a cockade and to save the german pilots from friendly fire it was ordered to repaint the EK with BK. So, reading that, I do not wonder any more.

H

[Thomas Trauner]

I still think the reason for changing to the Balkenkreuz was simplifying.

The small black crosses "inside a white circle" can be explained with the fact that esp. in 1916/17 the edges of the white field where sometimes "cut off" so from some distance it looked like a circle.
What Eddie R. saw in 1918....well, if we think about the descriptions of some flamboyant coloured German planes…A very narrow Balkenkreuz on a dark plane but with some “round” light/dark personal markings….

I would not base a new theory on an eyewitness account. Eyewitnesses are very often the most unreliable sources….. even if it’s Rickenbacker.

Thomas

[Mark Turner]

Thanks to all who replied to my question. Although there are eye-witness accounts of German aircraft with cockades we have to assume the possibility of mis-identification during aerial combat. What we really need is more evidence - a German account of marking aircraft in such a manner or photographic evidence (unlikely I'm sure)