RFC Morane-Saulnier Type N

JerryBoucher · 1 November 2008, 09:50 AM

I was wondering if anyone could give me a idea as to whether RFC Type Ns had a black or red cowl/hub? Various bits and pieces of artwork I've seen for this type don't seem to agree, and from photos it's also not easy to tell.

Any help much appreciated!

Gregvan · 1 November 2008, 10:25 AM

Hi Jerry,

The Morane-Saulniers left the French factory with black cowlings and metal parts. I'm pretty sure that Moranes in French service generally continued to fly with black cowlings.

However, in the RFC they were eventually painted red. In his history of "Sixty Squadron RAF 1916-1919", A.J.L. Scott wrote:

"War flying was started a few days later, and it at once became apparent that our anti-aircraft batteries found difficulty in distinguishing our 'bullets' from the Fokkers. In consequence the black cowls of our machines were painted red to help the "archie" gunners, who had been assiduously firing at 60's machines."

J.M. Bruce wrote: "At the request of General Trenchard, Capt. A R Smith-Barry (of 60 Sqdn) conducted comparative experiments with all the metal areas painted white on one Morane, red on another; on a third aircraft the airscrew was painted white. The white airscrew proved...to be invisible; and red was considered to be better than white as a distinguishing colour."

JerryBoucher · 2 November 2008, 01:31 AM

Thanks very much for that info Greg - red it is then!

JerryBoucher · 2 November 2008, 02:38 AM

A couple of other questions:

- what colour was the Morane-Saulnier badge on the cowl?
- there seems to have been some text on the upper part of the cowl. Any ideas what it said?

Gregvan · 2 November 2008, 06:36 AM

Hi Jerry,

I'm afraid those questions are far outside of my comfort zone, and others here are more qualified than I am to comment. I'm asuming you've been looking at the well-known (and excellent) photos of Lt. Bayetto seated in and standing next to Morane Saulnier A186. There does appear to be some sort of two-line white legend painted on the top of the red cowling, parallel and next to the machine gun - but I have no idea what it was or if it was actually simply where some paint had been scraped off.

In an old article in "Windsock" Ray Rimell said the Manufacturer's plate was "natural metal". In his caption for the fine profile below in his excellent book British Fighter Units Western Front 1914-16, Alex Revell said that"The Morane-Saulnier trademark was carried in the form of a brass disc with the letters "MS" fretted out, on each side of the engine cowling." In the photo of Bayetto in A186 (which had once served in 60 Squadron), the area inside the disc looks lighter than the red outside the disc, but I have no answers for that.

JerryBoucher · 2 November 2008, 06:49 AM

Thanks very much for that info Greg. I was wondering whether the background behind the M-S badge is perhaps some sort of shade of blue. I say this as it seems to be a similar shade to the blue part of the fuselage roundel (in the photo which shows Bayetto seated in A186). I'm wondering also whether the badge is a seperate piece of metal, fixed to the cowl, rather than a fretted out piece. After all, a fretted piece would involve quite alot of work, whereas a cast or pressed emblem would involve alot less man hours.

As for those letters, I'm sure they could be scratches. I've been squinting at it but cannot make out any detail at all.

All in all, a bit tricky to pin down!

TeamStewart · 2 November 2008, 07:55 AM

I believe that there was a lot of "weathering" of the paint over the metal parts, because the Castor oil used in the engine dissolved the paint.

It could very well just be scratches.

JerryBoucher · 3 December 2008, 01:53 AM

As a cross-reference to my other Morane thread, I was just wanting to double check when the red cowls made their first appearance? I've depicted Bayetto's machine in March 1916 with a red cowl, but a point has been raised by Southside Bucky about the cowls not being red until a later date. With that in mind I'd be very grateful if someone could let me know whether a March date would mean Bayetto's machine would have a black cowl.

Southside Bucky · 4 December 2008, 03:21 AM

Hi Jerry.

Just to let you know, my information regarding the date of the Morane over-paint came when I was researching details for a mission depicting Bayetto's combat that I created for the WW1 flight sim 'First Eagles'.

Here's the link:

Five Fokker's! March 2nd, 1916. -> User Made Missions -> SF/WO*/FE Missions/Campaigns -> Strike Fighters / Wings Over Vietnam / Wings Over Europe / Wings Over Israel / First Eagles by Thirdwire -> Downloads

Somewhere, amongst the references listed at the bottom of that mission 'Read Me', I came across the info regarding the July over-paint, and mentioned it specifically in the 'Compromises and game limitations' paragraph.

It might take a day or two, but I'll find the source of that info if you want.

Regards.

Bucky

JerryBoucher · 4 December 2008, 03:38 AM

Any info about this would be most useful. It wouldn't take much for me to change the cowl to black, but the red cowl is very striking and was what inspired me to depict the Type N in the first place. Then again, I guess I could always create another composition showing a red cowl and a scenario from later in 1916. I really like the design of the Type N!