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Go Back   The Aerodrome Forum > WWI Aviation > Aircraft > Camouflage and Markings


Camouflage and Markings Topics related to the camouflage and markings of WWI aircraft

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Old 12 November 2008, 01:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Application of printed fabrics pt.II


Greetings all;

You may remember this thread on lozenge application -

application of printed fabrics.

In that thread "Drome member" and Major good fellow Dan San Abbott discussed the application of lozenge and its specific relation to the Fokker D.VII series. The focus was rib tapes and whether they were one or two pieces. Dan believes that they were two piece. While I maintained that they were one piece. We discovered there were infact cases for both possibilities.

This thread is opened for a similar discussion but for a much smaller production run of the Fokker Factory. The Fokker D.VI is under scrutiny here. If you have information related to the Fokker D.VI and its lozenge application please feel free to comment.

The point I have come to is that the Fokker D.VI seems to fall under Dan's theory in many cases. To be specific the rib tapes appear to be two pieces. but again there appear to be anomalies. More to come.
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Old 13 November 2008, 01:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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To start. wing surface rib tapes are easily seen. While leading, wing tip and trailing edge are difficult to decern.

Leading edge tapes seem non existant.

Wing tip edge tapes appear to be a solid dark colour.

Trailing edge tapes appear to be a solid dark colour.
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Old 13 November 2008, 02:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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application of lozenge rib tapes

Hi Stephen,

I can't tell you about the Fokker D.VI specifically, but every piece of lozenge fabric (or should I say Flugzeugstoff - it is actually a more correct term as Dan-San has stated ) I have ever seen has had rib tapes which match the underlying fabric they are applied to. Upper surface fabric had upper surface coloured rib tapes and lower surfaces had lower surface coloured rib tapes. That is not to say that there were not exceptions to this rule. The one thing that I have learned about First World War aeroplanes is that there seem to be many exceptions to the rules. The rib tapes are not applied carefully to fit the underlying polygons, they just seem to be applied randomly.

I hope this helps.

Regards, David.
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Old 13 November 2008, 05:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Matching tapes.

StephenLawson:
This is what I have been telling you all along The rib tapes match the fabic, dark on dark and light on light. It is what the directives from Idfliegimplies. It ias not a theory, it is a fact.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
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Old 13 November 2008, 08:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '14-'18aviationcollector View Post
Hi Stephen, I can't tell you about the Fokker D.VI specifically, but every piece of lozenge fabric (or should I say Flugzeugstoff - it is actually a more correct term as Dan-San has stated ) I have ever seen has had rib tapes which match the underlying fabric they are applied to. Upper surface fabric had upper surface coloured rib tapes and lower surfaces had lower surface coloured rib tapes. That is not to say that there were not exceptions to this rule. The one thing that I have learned about First World War aeroplanes is that there seem to be many exceptions to the rules. The rib tapes are not applied carefully to fit the underlying polygons, they just seem to be applied randomly.

I hope this helps.

Regards, David.
Greetings David; Have you read through the link I posted?

First of all. "Lozenge" or "Flugzeugstoff" are both acceptable. The term "lozenge" coming from the 1918 British study of Fok. D.VII 368/18. You can read about it here or in the British report.

Next, multiple images were posted in the first link showing some of the variations. That thread concerned the Fokker D.VII topic. One subject there was the fabric with non matching rib tapes. So for this thread's sake this is about the Fok. D.VI.

Last edited by StephenLawson; 13 November 2008 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 13 November 2008, 09:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
StephenLawson: This is what I have been telling you all along The rib tapes match the fabic, dark on dark and light on light. It is what the directives from Idfliegimplies. It is not a theory, it is a fact.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Greetings Dan; Yes, I and everyone here has heard what you said. Though we are finding variations that don't have any bearing on the Idflieg order. I never called your statements theory. The ratio of how many times the idflieg implied intention was disregarded may never be known. But studying the photos we have on the Fok. D.VI I am asking - what can we learn about their details? As mentioned at the beginning there appear to be anomilies of a different sort here. Maybe we can get Roy Houchin to join in?

Last edited by StephenLawson; 13 November 2008 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 14 November 2008, 09:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Lozenge, improper term.

StephenLawson:
The term lozenge is a four sided form, elongated in the vertical, the diamond in a deck of cards is a lozenge. Whatever the origin of the term, (I thought it was Peter Gray??) it is incorrect. What we are talking about are irregular polygons, with four, five and six sided polygons of irregular form that do not fit the terms, square, pentagon or hexagon. I have stopped using the term in discussing German printed fabrics. I refer to it as German printed fabric, with the adjectives of either four color or five color. If we want to use the German term it would be the IdFlieg term, Flügelstoffe,(wing fabric) or if you want mimic Manfred Thiemeyer, use his term, "Flugzeugstoff"(aircraft fabric). That term, Lozenge, has the same effect on me as, irregardless! The other day I heard a newsanchor use that term. Actually Manfred's term is more definitive, it covers the whole aircraft, not just the wings.
Blue skies Steve,
Dan-San
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Old 14 November 2008, 11:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
StephenLawson:". . .Whatever the origin of the term, (I thought it was Peter Gray??) it is incorrect. . ."
History of the term "lozenge"

Greetings Dan;
If we are going to talk about the same subject I don't mind having clear definitions. But the 1918 terms inaccurate in your opinion or not is what we have in current research documents. Modern references like Datfiles or WWI Flight reports. We are not going to re-invent the wheel here. Back to the subject.


As described by Lt. Col. Roy Houchin USAF in a recent interview. ". . .In classic fashion. . .it depends. The mainplanes were completed and covered at a period in time where the change from five-color to four-colour was occurring.(Note the parent company Fokker at Schwerin /Gorries had even used five-colour on the wings of the early production Fokker D.VII types.) Subsequently, both patterns appear on airframes (of the D.VI) in no particular order or serial number. However, four-color seems to be the dominant lozenge fabric at least for the fuselages.

Rather than placing the fabric seam on the centerline of the wing, Fokker's fabric shop worked from the port wing tip in the case of the D.VI. The resulting seam was just outboard of the first rib to starboard of the center (as viewed by the pilot.) The fabric strips rib and border tapes were made of the same (lozenge) material. They were applied everywhere except the ribs of the control surfaces. The leading edge plywood caps were reinforced with, chordwise strips of plain fabric over the ribs and are visible as outlines under the doped lozenge fabric in some pictures as they are wider than the rib tapes. On elevators and ailerons, the pattern ran spanwise with the cover for one surface cut from one edge; its opposite number was cut from the middle of the roll and inverted. The horizontal Tailplane fabric pattern was run spanwise as well. It's best to look long and hard at the specific photograph to glean any particulars. . ."

Last edited by StephenLawson; 14 November 2008 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 15 November 2008, 10:08 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Off center,an aberation.

StephenLawson:
1.The photograph, Flz.Bild.A 11341 of the first production Fok.D.VI 1631/18 taken at Adlershof, rear view,slightly left of center, clearly shows the seam inboard of rib R.1 is an aberation, not the norm.
2. The production norm is a photograph of Fok.D.VI 1689/18, taken at Flugpark B at Neuf-Brisach. The photo clearly shows the base seam on the center-line between Rib 1L and rib 1R. the wings are covered chordwise.
3. The wings were made by Perzina Pianoforte and are covered with dark day/night five color printed fabric. The fuselage and tailplane were made by Fokker and were covered with four color day printed fabric. See Datafile 84, FOKKER D.VI, by Peter M.Grosz, page 3, photo 5, for Fok.D.VI D.1631/18 and page 9, photo 16, for Fok.D.VI 1689/18.
4. Roy should have looked at more photos, for example, photo 15 ,top of page 9, the seam is centered, page 21, photo 23, poor quality, but the seam is centered at the trailing edge of the cutout.
5. If you want to use the original term for printed fabric, it is Flügelstoffe.
Regardless of what the RAF examiner's incorrect term lozenge, is incorrect, it is an improper term. If you wish to be precise, it is printed irregular polygons.
6. You call it anything you like Steve. But please, don't try to make a fact out of it.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
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Old 15 November 2008, 04:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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StephenLawson: ". . .You call it anything you like Stephen. But please, don't try to make a fact out of it. . .Blue skies,
Dan-San
Dan you have studied lozenge for what, 25-30 years? Yet countless times I have heard you use the term lozenge. It is only recently you yourself have tried to move to different terms. That is your right. But don't expect countless resource materials to be discredited because you want to change terms. Now, aberrations, anomolies, variations and etc. That is what this thread is about. So lets proceed.

Since you think Roy should have checked more carefully you might take that up with him. His source was the Peter Grosz photos. Since his job in the military is satellite image interpretation and he teaches the subject at the War College one might think he can read a 1918 image with a good degree of sanity. His studies on the subject of the Fokker D.VI and their subsequent publishing in WWI Aero puts the mantle on his shoulders.

Now if we can have aberrations, anomolies, variations and etc in such a small production run of sixty aircraft can we expect an even exaggerated scenario in larger production runs? As Roy and Dan have agreed the Fokker D.VI run 4 & 5 colour printed lozenge fabrics were mixed on the airframes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott View Post
". . .The wings were made by Perzina Pianoforte and are covered with dark day/night five color printed fabric. The fuselage and tailplane were made by Fokker and were covered with four color day printed fabric. See Datafile 84, FOKKER D.VI, by Peter M.Grosz, page 3, photo 5, for Fok.D.VI D.1631/18 and page 9, photo 16, for Fok.D.VI 1689/18. . ."
As described by Lt. Col. Roy Houchin USAF in a recent interview. ". . .In classic fashion. . .it depends. The mainplanes were completed and covered at a period in time where the change from five-color to four-colour was occurring.(Note the parent company Fokker at Schwerin /Gorries had even used five-colour on the wings of the early production Fokker D.VII types.) Subsequently, both patterns appear on airframes (of the D.VI) in no particular order or serial number. However, four-color seems to be the dominant lozenge fabric at least for the fuselages. . . "

Last edited by StephenLawson; 15 November 2008 at 05:11 PM.
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