Nieuport 17 N1428 brown and green camo colors???

[mgtaylor]

ecru

Was Ist Das "Ercu" ?

Yours Mike

[Froggy]

Hello Mike
Dont know were you see "Ecru", but Ecru means in French natural color
(linen colour ..)

Cordialement
Bruno

[mgtaylor]

Whew Thank goodness !! Ercu is French for Natural Linen. Thank you Bruno.

I was following Stephen's Quote:

While there is plenty of evidence for aluminum on the undersurfaces of the Nieu 17 we are almost sure that it was never on any of the Nieu. 16 types. Those all appear to be ecru not CDL.

YOurs Mike

[davecww1]

Hi Lefty,
I used that profile about 5 years ago when I built my first model of N 1490, did the undersides aluminum and a 2 color camouflaged dark brown & green.
later I discovered on the Aerodrome forum that the undersides was light blue and the wing & tail tapes were the Horizon blue, most of the people agreed on this but it may or may not be correct depending on the actual date that the aluminum was started in production. My guess is the light blue and camouflage was used on N 16 and very early N 17 and all would have the horizon blue outlines. When the production of the N 17 began the aluminum dope they did away with the camouflage as can be seen in most of the aircraft of the N3 lineup. The only exceptions seem to be field repairs and replacement wings, some had aluminum fuselages with camouflaged wings but these were not delivered from the factory like this.
Thanks,
Dave

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by mgtaylor

Whew Thank goodness !! Ercu is French for Natural Linen. Thank you Bruno. I was following Stephen's Quote: Yours Mike

Actually Mike the term "ecru" was also a name applied to a linen coloured paints that were applied to metal or fabric surfaces. Take for instance the Spad VII had one type of oil based paint on the forward fuselage and cowling areas. The fabric areas were covered in another paint that was only similar in colour. CDL was the term where a clear covering sealed the fabric.

On CDL airframes you can see the shadows of the internal structures backlit by sunlight. Fabric "Ecru" was a solid opaque paint that did not react to sunlight by allowing shadows to be seen.

Click Here.

[flypaper]

According to Alan Toelle in a letter published in issue 104 "WWI Aero" upon inspection of the Guynemer's Spad VII in Paris before restoration the finish was linen, followed by CLEAR cellulose acetate, finished with fatty varnish, the color due to the natural color of the linen plus the yellowing of the coatings. So according to him the Spad VII was not painted but clear coated. Mr. Toelle called this color "chamois" and gives it a Methuen 4-5 B 4-5. A pigmented (but slightly darker) copy of this color was used "on metal and wood parts adjacent to fabric parts, for example the rudder post"

He goes on to cover the darker painted nose of the Spad with the a color he calls "caramel" to which he gives the Methuen 5 D-E 5-6. This color was only used on the forward fuselage.

Sorry but at the moment I cant put my hand on my copy of Methuen book, but some of my notes point to X-tra paint "French WWII chamois" as a good match to Methuen 5B5, for the linen finish, and a slightly darker version for the pigmented dope used on metal and wood parts adjacent to the linen finish. As for the darker "caramel" Humbrols "#94 Yellow Brown" falls within the Methuen 5 E 4-5 he calls out in his letter.

I hope the above is helpful.

[flypaper]

As for my notes the term "ecru" first shows up being the underside color of the Spad XIII 5 color scheme.

[StephenLawson]

Before restoration the colour of the fabric and metal areas of Guynemer's Spad VII had aged considerably since 1917. Alan has taken that into his calculations as well. Guynemer's S.254 and others in the surrounding series may have been treated similarly we have pleanty of photo evidence showing monotone painted fabric on Spad VII types. See; Spad VII C.1 by Tomasz Gronczewski and Seweryn M. Fleischer, Aviatik Pub. 2004. Alan was a consultant on this as well.

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

Before restoration the colour of the fabric and metal areas of Guynemer's Spad VII had aged considerably since 1917. Alan has taken that into his calculations as well. Guynemer's S.254 and others in the surrounding series may have been treated similarly we have pleanty of photo evidence showing monotone painted fabric on Spad VII types. See; Spad VII C.1 by Tomasz Gronczewski and Seweryn M. Fleischer, Aviatik Pub. 2004. Alan was a consultant on this as well.

I dont quite understand what your trying to say? Yes the fabric had yellowed, but he had another piece of frabric from another Spad VII from the H.B.Willis Spad VII #1227. It confirmed the clear cellulose acetate dope with a top cost of fatty varnish. NO paint or painted linen surfaces just the two coatings I as stated. The aircraft also was not monotone, he went went on to say that the metal areas were a darker color "Caramel" and the linen was "Chamois" were what he dubed the colors he also gave them the Methuen numbers that I listed. I went to my copy of the Methuen Handbook of color and looked up the call outs he made and matched them to the paints chips I have displayed in a post above. The two chips fall into the Methuen call outs he made....All the information I have just past on is from HIS research and his findings.

I have the book you mentioned I dont asee what ut has to do with Mr Toelle's finding in Paris. Guynemers and Willis Spads were finished the sane way clear coated not painted, since it was a Military relic in France it is understandable that the French wouldnt alow him to cut a piece of Guynemers Spad but they did alow him a piece from the Wiullis Spad that was at the Musee de Berlancourt.

I dont understand this trying to tear down Mr.Toelles research. or is it just something personal?

Everything I have posted on this thread I have backed up with were and when it comes from....

Flypaper

[StephenLawson]

Flypaper - You seem to be taking things way too personally, as though it is directed at you. I am simply adding to the information that we have here. It is not about you. Alan's research in the arena of French colouring is at the leading edge of the study. Like any other company French manufacturers used what they had and were allowed to use by contract. As Dan San Abbott has said and I agree with, you can't take a few solitary examples and expect to outline a whole production batch or a series. We try to look at the production batch as a whole and note what was happening there over-all.

French manufacturers often had more than one type of aircraft on the factory floor under construction. Spad VII and XII and XIII types were a typical example. Contracts had to be fulfilled and there is often no clear cut definition when certain finishes were adopted. But referencing photo evidence of all these types does give us a clearer image. Typically 5 colour camouflage started showing up on late Spad VII, XII and early Spad XIII (late 1917 - early 1918) at the same time. So ecru wold have been a colour used in all of these examples. As has been mentioned previously Alan notes that there are certain anomalies.

Transferring this application to the Nieuport series one can almost track the various camouflages by examples that were produced at the same time. This over-view of these airframes helps us understand the situation at the time of production.

Going through "Project Butterfly" we can get a serial listing of a large section of each Spad production batch by airframe and when they left the factory or were at the front and whether it had camouflage or not. This is not a portion of the articles that is generally discussed. So giving more information to everyone helps us have a better understanding of the subject at hand.