Nieuport 17 N1428 brown and green camo colors???

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

Flypaper - You seem to be taking things way too personally, as though it is directed at you. I am simply adding to the information that we have here. It is not about you. Alan's research in the arena of French colouring is at the leading edge of the study. Like any other company French manufacturers used what they had and were allowed to use by contract. As Dan San Abbott has said and I agree with, you can't take a few solitary examples and expect to outline a whole production batch or a series. We try to look at the production batch as a whole and note what was happening there over-all.

French manufacturers often had more than one type of aircraft on the factory floor under construction. Spad VII and XII and XIII types were a typical example. Contracts had to be fulfilled and there is often no clear cut definition when certain finishes were adopted. But referencing photo evidence of all these types does give us a clearer image. Typically 5 colour camouflage started showing up on late Spad VII, XII and early Spad XIII (late 1917 - early 1918) at the same time. So ecru wold have been a colour used in all of these examples. As has been mentioned previously Alan notes that there are certain anomalies.

Transferring this application to the Nieuport series one can almost track the various camouflages by examples that were produced at the same time. This over-view of these airframes helps us understand the situation at the time of production.

Going through "Project Butterfly" we can get a serial listing of a large section of each Spad production batch by airframe and when they left the factory or were at the front and whether it had camouflage or not. This is not a portion of the articles that is generally discussed. So giving more information to everyone helps us have a better understanding of the subject at hand.

When a poster Dan Abbott tells me "to stop posting" because I come aboard with new information he doesn't like your damn right I take it personally, that comment was directed at . Especially when his information on French camo is so-so at best, and hasn't gotten past the Butterfly articles because according to him everything else is just rehash.

The supposed information you added was 180 degrees from what Alan T's letter concerning the 2 Spad VII original fabric said. It was not painted. and the a/c was not monotone the metal panels were a different color than the fabric. Were was the new information in your post? I'm not the one knocking Alan's research it seems that you and Dan Abbott can't seem to grasp what he is saying. His letter was very clear about the finish on the Paris Spad VII.

Moving on to the 5 color camo he makes it very clear that the Salmson (which were finished with the same pigmented covering as the Spad XIII) "Left the factory with a wet look". It also seems according to a Over The Front series on the Salmson there was a distinct pattern paint scheme on them also.

As far as the factory floor is concerned it may have been busy but it was not chaotic as you suggest, the various factories that produced the XIII were given a complete set of drawings that showed them the how the XIII was to be painted, there may have been some artistic license, but the proof of it is that even today we can tell who manufactured which XIII by only looking at the camo pattern, nothing slip-shod about that as you suggest. You keep mentioning reference photos that prove a point I have yet to see one,in the mean time I have put up photos and color chips taken right from the Methuen book (as per Alan T's call outs in Paris), Ive also posted photos that show the "wet" look that was my point and they are certainly show the a/c as matte finishes as Dan Abbott swore up and down they were.

I dint think you fully read my postings....you bring up ecru , You posted the term ecru when you were talking about the finish on the N16. I said in a later posting that my notes mention ecru for the first time when it is used to describe the under side color of the XIII, I cant speak for the XII but your assertion that ecru as a separate colorwas applied to the VII I have to disagree with since Alan T's research confirms that the fabric on the VII was clear coated and any "color" was a result of the clear coat and the fatty varnish used on the VII's.

Since the research material we have is small and tied to certain aircraft the conclusions are going to based on what they say. You saying that they cant be taken as proof of the entire picture is to deny what is clearly in front of you. Your saying that since here is not a a large amount of proof we should toss out what we do have because it doesn't add up to a mountain. Lets toss out the baby with he bath water.

I am looking forward to you supplying the serial # of the XIII's from Butterfly. Are you aware that the shape and placement of the "S" on the rudder before the serial number also can help identify particular builders.

Flypaper

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Flypaper:
Who in hell is knocking Alan Toelle, not me and not Steve. There is no one more informed than than Alan Toelle about the Acellos Camoufage Scheme. If you are unaware the the serial listings in Project Butterfy, I can only conclude you have not seen it. Are you aware of the Drinker Report?
What are your bonafides? Have you published this new information you claim to have? If so, here?
The Spad XIII photos you posted, what data did they provide about the dope used? It is not the Acellos dope or their formula. Those cowlings are glossy.
Yes, Project Butterfly has the rudder markings showing how the different manufacturer accomplished the "S" and the font style of the rest of the lettering.
All the dopes used on the fabric, dark green, light green, beige, chocolate brown, insignia red and insignia blue, under side yellow and blue were aluminized. The matt black was not.
Alan has by chemical analysis established the composition and formulas of the Acellos dopes. He has been the supplier of the Acellos dopes to builders and restorers as well as some model builders.
Do you know Alan?
I don't hide behind a moniker.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[StephenLawson]

Ok Flypaper, lets be fair.

Originally Posted by flypaper

When a poster Dan Abbott tells me "to stop posting" because I come aboard with new information he doesn't like your damn right I take it personally, that comment was directed at . Especially when his information on French camo is so-so at best, and hasn't gotten past the Butterfly articles because according to him everything else is just rehash.

You skipped a few words here and there because you seem upset so I'll try to work through it. Your issues with Dan should be kept out of this post. Report what you will to admin. Me, him, Aunt Swinny, whatever. But this is not the place for it. Also I did not tell you anything about posting. So leave me out of that. And lets face it Alan's studies were performed on an electron microscope so, no your not going to do much but rehash it if thats all you want to discuss. We are doing this thread a dis-service by going this direction.

Originally Posted by flypaper

The supposed information you added was 180 degrees from what Alan T's letter concerning the 2 Spad VII original fabric said. It was not painted. and the a/c was not monotone the metal panels were a different color than the fabric. Were was the new information in your post? I'm not the one knocking Alan's research it seems that you and Dan Abbott can't seem to grasp what he is saying. His letter was very clear about the finish on the Paris Spad VII.

You say that Alan Toelle's letter is accurate. I can agree. I never said CDL was not a method. What I said was there were other methods that were employed. Alan never said all Spad VII types were done just this way or that. His research reaches beyond my 180 description to encompass 360 degrees. You are seeing about 2% of his whole study. He has a study on each and every Spad airframe that it in existance. Most of us have that. Thats why we can say what we do.

Originally Posted by flypaper

Moving on to the 5 color camo he makes it very clear that the Salmson (which were finished with the same pigmented covering as the Spad XIII) "Left the factory with a wet look". It also seems according to a Over The Front series on the Salmson there was a distinct pattern paint scheme on them also.

Since the original topic of this thread is about the Nieuport 17 1428 let us refrain from delving further into other aircraft types. No more Spads, lets focus on just the Nieuport 17 type with camouflage. This was not the late war 5 colour camouflage we have referenced. We got stuck on the linen colour and veared of course. I'll take the blame for that. We can open up the late war French 5colour in another thread.

Originally Posted by flypaper

". . .You keep mentioning reference photos that prove a point I have yet to see one,in the mean time I have put up photos and color chips taken right from the Methuen book (as per Alan T's call outs in Paris), Ive also posted photos that show the "wet" look that was my point and they are certainly show the a/c as matte finishes as Dan Abbott swore up and down they were.

Again, lets be fair, your colour chips have little to do with the actual colours. You see there was a fellow initials R.G. that liked to use hobby paints to reference colours and made a living on it. Though meager he was found to be a fraud. It has left a bad taste in most older members minds. When you throw up similar colour chips it puts you at home base with one strike. The values on your screen will not be the same on others. References to hobby paints is a tough start.

The "wet look" deteriorates pretty quickly and most of us who have photo references know. Without the clear gloss the pigmented dopes are matte - flat etc. I think you will find that is where Dan San Abbott was going.

Originally Posted by flypaper

I dint think you fully read my postings. . .I have to disagree with since Alan T's research confirms that the fabric on the VII was clear coated and any "color" was a result of the clear coat and the fatty varnish used on the VII's.

Again you are using two aircraft to stereotype all. You may not mean to do this, but that is all you are really saying.

Originally Posted by flypaper

Since the research material we have is small and tied to certain aircraft the conclusions are going to based on what they say. You saying that they cant be taken as proof of the entire picture is to deny what is clearly in front of you. Your saying that since here is not a a large amount of proof we should toss out what we do have because it doesn't add up to a mountain. Lets toss out the baby with he bath water. . .

Not at all. What I am saying is broaden your research. Don't just take two airframes and have them account for 1,000.

Originally Posted by flypaper

I am looking forward to you supplying the serial # of the XIII's from Butterfly. Are you aware that the shape and placement of the "S" on the rudder before the serial number also can help identify particular builders. Flypaper

You seem to want everything handed to you? I never said I would supply you with anything. Period. I simply pointed out to everyone where it could be found. Yes, there is a whole section on stencils and the different manufacturer's variations. Project Butterfly was and is a great tool. But Alan Toelle has carried on his research beyond that of the early days. He has fine tuned it and made some great discoveries. He has shared them with people that he knows are serious about continuing their studies.

Now lets turn to the Nieuport 17 1428.

[StephenLawson]

Esacdrille N 3 adjutant Pere Dorme's Nieuport 17 N 1428 was indeed camouflaged. Flown during the summer months of 1916 it was an early version with a one piece cowling and without Cockades on the upper surface of the top wing. This scheme has been represented as having all upper surfaces painted in "dark earth" brown and grayish - green segments. The undersurfaces have been depicted as clear doped linen. Wheel covers were represented in a similar dark earth brown but was probably altered somwhat by the castor oil exhaust of the LeRhône power plant. It also was fitted with a large type windscreen and only a Lewis gun mounted on the top wing. The white #12 was Dorme's personal assignment and at first was only carried on the fuselage sides near the horizontal tail unit. The Stork emblem was probably white even to the wing feathers. On the pilot's left it probably carried the moniker "Pere Dorme II". The "N" from the serial was absent and "may" refer to the rudder being a replacement.

What we know of this machine comes from;

Air Enthusiast quarterly #2 P.137 "Those Fabulous Nieuports".

But mostly from
"La Guerre Aerianne Illustree (various issues) 1915 -1916."

Nothing in any of the photo images I have seen confirms the undersurfaces. as being CDL, lt. blue or aluminum painted. BUT! Since lt. blue was introduced with some type 11, 16 and this is an early 17. I could see either CDL or lt. blue being used in 1916. Also there is some speculation that the two toned camouflage was actually two browns and two greens (light and dark) as was used on the Nieuport 16. This must be investigated further. What we do know is that the aluminum powder was not present in these types of camouflage for 1916.

[mgtaylor]

This has been an extremely Edifying if not Spirited thread.

I appreciate all the replys and especially references. All (refernece sources) mentioned are most educational and facinating.

Thank you to all for your particapation and knowledge. I happily "Lurk" on the sidelines watching and learning as much as possible on this one.

Yours Mike

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Flypaper:
Who in hell is knocking Alan Toelle, not me and not Steve. There is no one more informed than than Alan Toelle about the Acellos Camoufage Scheme. If you are unaware the the serial listings in Project Butterfy, I can only conclude you have not seen it. Are you aware of the Drinker Report?
What are your bonafides? Have you published this new information you claim to have? If so, here?
The Spad XIII photos you posted, what data did they provide about the dope used? It is not the Acellos dope or their formula. Those cowlings are glossy.
Yes, Project Butterfly has the rudder markings showing how the different manufacturer accomplished the "S" and the font style of the rest of the lettering.
All the dopes used on the fabric, dark green, light green, beige, chocolate brown, insignia red and insignia blue, under side yellow and blue were aluminized. The matt black was not.
Alan has by chemical analysis established the composition and formulas of the Acellos dopes. He has been the supplier of the Acellos dopes to builders and restorers as well as some model builders.
Do you know Alan?
I don't hide behind a moniker.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

I'm done with you....you twist and turn, you insult people who don't agree with you. You stiffle disagreement by telling posters "stop posting".sorry DSA I see no reason to answer you.

Do you accuse all the posters with nick names of "hiding behind a moniker"?Perhaps you dont need one since your ego is huge enough to hide aany faults.

Flypaper

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

Ok Flypaper, lets be fair.



You skipped a few words here and there because you seem upset so I'll try to work through it. Your issues with Dan should be kept out of this post. Report what you will to admin. Me, him, Aunt Swinny, whatever. But this is not the place for it. Also I did not tell you anything about posting. So leave me out of that. And lets face it Alan's studies were performed on an electron microscope so, no your not going to do much but rehash it if thats all you want to discuss. We are doing this thread a dis-service by going this direction.

I

You say that Alan Toelle's letter is accurate. I can agree. I never said CDL was not a method. What I said was there were other methods that were employed. Alan never said all Spad VII types were done just this way or that. His research reaches beyond my 180 description to encompass 360 degrees. You are seeing about 2% of his whole study. He has a study on each and every Spad airframe that it in existance. Most of us have that. Thats why we can say what we do.



Since the original topic of this thread is about the Nieuport 17 1428 let us refrain from delving further into other aircraft types. No more Spads, lets focus on just the Nieuport 17 type with camouflage. This was not the late war 5 colour camouflage we have referenced. We got stuck on the linen colour and veared of course. I'll take the blame for that. We can open up the late war French 5colour in another thread.



Again, lets be fair, your colour chips have little to do with the actual colours. You see there was a fellow initials R.G. that liked to use hobby paints to reference colours and made a living on it. Though meager he was found to be a fraud. It has left a bad taste in most older members minds. When you throw up similar colour chips it puts you at home base with one strike. The values on your screen will not be the same on others. References to hobby paints is a tough start.

The "wet look" deteriorates pretty quickly and most of us who have photo references know. Without the clear gloss the pigmented dopes are matte - flat etc. I think you will find that is where Dan San Abbott was going.



Again you are using two aircraft to stereotype all. You may not mean to do this, but that is all you are really saying.



Not at all. What I am saying is broaden your research. Don't just take two airframes and have them account for 1,000.



You seem to want everything handed to you? I never said I would supply you with anything. Period. I simply pointed out to everyone where it could be found. Yes, there is a whole section on stencils and the different manufacturer's variations. Project Butterfly was and is a great tool. But Alan Toelle has carried on his research beyond that of the early days. He has fine tuned it and made some great discoveries. He has shared them with people that he knows are serious about continuing their studies.

Now lets turn to the Nieuport 17 1428.

There is so much wrong with this post it boggles my mind. I have more important things to do (clean the cats litter pan) than waste my time trying to untangle all the misrepresentations, half truths, and unsupported conclusions contained.

Rufus Leking aka "Flypaper"