French 5 Color chips from Methune Handbook

Sreiko · 27 January 2009, 07:16 PM

One important detail- this image is not published on my web site as well I have sold this build almost with parts still on frets [article will be soon out]. So here you are image where is clearly seen paint over metal and fabric surfaces. So error you note is for sure typing error.

flypaper · 27 January 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sreiko

I know that metal powdered paint was used on the fabric areas only. It might to be that I have make some typing error. Would you be kind to quote part of text where I have make error?

Quote:

the basic color was approximately 40% metal pigment, and this mixture was used over the fabric-covered areas and over the metal and wood surfaces and over the fabric surfaces,

from your article.

Flypaper

Sreiko · 27 January 2009, 07:28 PM

What a terrible mistake!!! Thank you very much for help!

Cigogne · 27 January 2009, 07:53 PM

Flypaper, et al,

Hmmm. Maybe the color chips and drawings matched the Methuen book before you scanned them, but simply scanning isn't necessarily an exact match. The light refraction from the glass of the scanner gets introduced into the digital scans. The results from the raw scans get a bit flat looking, etc. which spoils what you're all trying to achieve.
Scanning always necessitates in some color correction. If any of you are expecting an exact match... it ain't gonna happen.

In Alan Toelle's Breguet 14 Datafile Special back in the tabular info in the back he inserts a color table where he provides the various color code numbers for computer users. Alan has done a lot of research in the last 40 years since he did the Project Butterfly articles. Why not use his more recent published research along with his earlier Project Butterfly material?

Alan has long ago entered the digital realm and does excellent work using Adobe Illustrator to create his more recent highly detailed Spad XIII and Breguet digital drawings. I think that time would be better spent looking up those color codes rather than using the Methuen book. The color codes come from the digital samples that Alan took from the actual fabric as well as microscope images of color pigment fragments. These were captured using Spectrophotometer software and equipment. Get the Breguet datafile... it's worth it just for that information alone.

Raoul Lubliner · 28 January 2009, 12:01 AM

I'm not an expert, but not too sure about the glass interfering (flattening) with color reproduction. Aren't these scanners designed with that in mind; reasonably accurate color reproduction?

Aside from that, can someone please direct me to the original source for the 1916 color side view (Autochrome???) of N 940 that appears from time to time? I am trying to determine the strut tape color as there is a chromatic aberration of red above and blue below each tape indicating (to my dim mind) a dark blue to violet hue lurks somewhere in there! Thanks.

Sreiko · 28 January 2009, 02:35 AM

As I know there is two blue used by French- one is medium grey blue and another is dark blue.

jumpinjan · 28 January 2009, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raoul Lubliner

I'm not an expert, but not too sure about the glass interfering (flattening) with color reproduction. Aren't these scanners designed with that in mind; reasonably accurate color reproduction?

Yes, I'm not sure what Cigogne was getting at, but maybe its the "ghosting" from both internal & external "reflections" from the platen's surfaces. I would think an AR coating was applied to reduce reflections. A dirty platen doesn't help either, it needs cleaning on both sides.
Another point is the idea of discarding Methuen codes for numerical data from a lab spectrophotometer and/or RGB coding using personal computer & scanners. Okay, you have numerical data, now what do you do with it? How do you use that data to accurately reconstruct the color where you can see it again? The Methuen book is still a very effective color defining method for us and shouldn't be discarded.
(Just my two cents)
Jan

flypaper · 28 January 2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigogne

Flypaper, et al,

Hmmm. Maybe the color chips and drawings matched the Methuen book before you scanned them, but simply scanning isn't necessarily an exact match. The light refraction from the glass of the scanner gets introduced into the digital scans. The results from the raw scans get a bit flat looking, etc. which spoils what you're all trying to achieve.
Scanning always necessitates in some color correction. If any of you are expecting an exact match... it ain't gonna happen.

In Alan Toelle's Breguet 14 Datafile Special back in the tabular info in the back he inserts a color table where he provides the various color code numbers for computer users. Alan has done a lot of research in the last 40 years since he did the Project Butterfly articles. Why not use his more recent published research along with his earlier Project Butterfly material?

Alan has long ago entered the digital realm and does excellent work using Adobe Illustrator to create his more recent highly detailed Spad XIII and Breguet digital drawings. I think that time would be better spent looking up those color codes rather than using the Methuen book. The color codes come from the digital samples that Alan took from the actual fabric as well as microscope images of color pigment fragments. These were captured using Spectrophotometer software and equipment. Get the Breguet datafile... it's worth it just for that information alone.

Cigogne...
To answer your first problem. If you look at each color sample you will see that I have also added the paints manufacturer and name and the FS# it claims to be, so even if you had a screwed up monitor and didn't trust the scans you can still easily check the colors against a FS color deck, or at your local hobby shop.

Second...using computer generated chips is great if your monitor matches EXACTLY the output of the person who generated the photoshop chips....I cant speak for Mr. Toelle but he may have shifted to cp generated chips because most people do not have the Methuen book. As for the book being accurate I will stick to it because of the above posted reason.

Flypaper

Raoul Lubliner · 28 January 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sreiko

As I know there is two blue used by French- one is medium grey blue and another is dark blue.

Thank you. is there any reference numbers or guides to those two colors available?

Also, FROM WHERE was that 1916 Color side view of 3 color camouflaged Nieuport 11, number 940 originally pilfered?

jumpinjan · 28 January 2009, 08:24 AM

Flypaper,
Question, where did you derived the codes for your paint samples. I was able to borrow the C&C issues and read Alan's articles, but the article's codes are different. Are your's derived from the later WWIAero article of Alan's (which I don't have yet).
(Its snowing like crazy outside. Good day to be in the shop working on WWI models

)
Jan