French 5 Color chips from Methune Handbook

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by jumpinjan

Flypaper,
Question, where did you derived the codes for your paint samples. I was able to borrow the C&C issues and read Alan's articles, but the article's codes are different. Are your's derived from the later WWIAero article of Alan's (which I don't have yet).
(Its snowing like crazy outside. Good day to be in the shop working on WWI models)
Jan

Hello Jan.

Yes I got the codes from the Aero letter. This is how I came up with those chips:

Mr Toelle had many green samples to work with and in his notes he states that the Light Green samples fall between Methuen reference 30-4 D-E 4-6 which in fact is a range of greens in the Methuen book, not just one color. So I went out and purchased a series of medium/light green model paints from as many makers as I could find and made chips of every one of the greens. Then I matched the chips against the range of greens in the Methuen book. I also did this for every one of the colors except black. All the chips that didn't match made it into my chip card collection and those that did were given the appropriate methuen code, (which pinpoints were in the range THAT color belongs) who made the model paint, what FS# was claimed by the maker and the name of the paint "Warsaw Grey Green" as an example.

It may not be as technical as Mr Toelle's work but remember I did this for myself as a model builder and to be honest I feel comfortable with the results and would not hesitate using any of them on a one of my French WWI models.

attached is a sample of my paint collection purchased in my quest for proper camo colors in my area of interest.

Cheers
Flypaper.

PS Ripely is a 1:1 scale alley cat.

[PeeJay333]

Would the light brown or cream color shown in the color chips be the same as the early overall light brown/cream used on the S.P.A.D. VII's? What prompted me to ask is a photo of Capitaine Georges Guynemer's first S.P.A.D. VII that appears to have only a subtle difference in the color of the fabric, vs. the forward metal panels, which made me wonder if that would be due to the aluminum powder in the paint covering the fabric areas.

PeeJay

[Cigogne]

Flypaper, Jan, PeeJay, et al,

I am very impressed by the work and effort that have went in to everyones research. My aim is to just bring up and point you to more recent research and show some of the technical pluses and minuses. I work as a digital imaging specialist and so am not pulling this out of the air, but basing this on years of experience. Also, the Methuen book does not display solid color chips, they are all screened color CMYK approximations and not solid color.

Regarding what the monitor displays... that depends how each person sets his or hers up, or differences in manufacturing, or on the home front whether you have it in a well lit room, are there windows with natural light in the room? Is the monitor set up in sRGB, AdobeRGB, Or, is the room in a dark, neutral environment? The variables are many. The number data would be the same on the CPUs, but the monitor display variables are where the differences occur.

Also, not all scanners are the same... there are a lot of cheap crappy scanners that have less of a dynamic range vs. more reputable brands that are used for professional purposes w/ more sensitive CCDs and better software to run them make a big difference in results.

Also, re-reading Alan's text on why he chose to use CMYK over RGB are addressed in the Datafile. The CMYK data are more stable when converted to RGB, but if created in RGB when converted to CMYK the numbers shift and appear more saturated. CMYK to RGB works fine, but not the other way around since CMYK is for ink-based printing purposes.

[Cigogne]

Alan's tabular color chart data in the Breguet Datafile lists the French aircraft colors in CMYK, RGB, and Methuen equivalents. He lists both Ripolin color data as well as the cellulose-based finishes both with and without aluminum particles, including black.

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by PeeJay333

Would the light brown or cream color shown in the color chips be the same as the early overall light brown/cream used on the S.P.A.D. VII's? What prompted me to ask is a photo of Capitaine Georges Guynemer's first S.P.A.D. VII that appears to have only a subtle difference in the color of the fabric, vs. the forward metal panels, which made me wonder if that would be due to the aluminum powder in the paint covering the fabric areas.

PeeJay

Hello PeeJay

According to Mr. Teolles letter in WWI Aero magazine Guynemers Spad VII on display in Paris was not painted but had a clear cellulose acetate dope followed by a coat of fatty varnish, the color due to the natural linnen color and the yellowing of the coating. He gives it the Methuen read out of 4-5 B 4-5 and goes on to say it really didnt hit any one of the colors in the Methuen book on the head. (he calls this color chamois)
A pigmented paint of the same color was used on the non-fabric portions of the air frame behind the cockpit and was slightly lighter than the clear doped and varnished fabric finish. Phew...
And now the 3rd color used was the pigmentated paint used on the metal parts of the airframe forward of the cockpit which he gave the Methuen as 5 D-E 5-6. (He calls this color Caramel)
So now we have 3 colors The clear linnen color, the color paint used to mimic the fabric on non fabric parts of the airframe behind the cocpit and a darker pigmentated paint used on the metal panels forward of the cockpit.

"behind and forward" of the cockpit is used only as a quick reference point for me in this post...

Looking back at my color chips I see that there is a 4 B 4 (polly Scale French Beige) and two 5 E 5 (British Middlestone).

I didnt start these chips for the Spad VII finish only the 5 color camo finish but what is there should give you an idea of what he was talking about.

By the way none of the pigmentated paints had aluminum added to them.

Flypaper

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by Cigogne

Flypaper, Jan, PeeJay, et al,

I am very impressed by the work and effort that have went in to everyones research. My aim is to just bring up and point you to more recent research and show some of the technical pluses and minuses. I work as a digital imaging specialist and so am not pulling this out of the air, but basing this on years of experience. Also, the Methuen book does not display solid color chips, they are all screened color CMYK approximations and not solid color.

Regarding what the monitor displays... that depends how each person sets his or hers up, or differences in manufacturing, or on the home front whether you have it in a well lit room, are there windows with natural light in the room? Is the monitor set up in sRGB, AdobeRGB, Or, is the room in a dark, neutral environment? The variables are many. The number data would be the same on the CPUs, but the monitor display variables are where the differences occur.

Also, not all scanners are the same... there are a lot of cheap crappy scanners that have less of a dynamic range vs. more reputable brands that are used for professional purposes w/ more sensitive CCDs and better software to run them make a big difference in results.

Also, re-reading Alan's text on why he chose to use CMYK over RGB are addressed in the Datafile. The CMYK data are more stable when converted to RGB, but if created in RGB when converted to CMYK the numbers shift and appear more saturated. CMYK to RGB works fine, but not the other way around since CMYK is for ink-based printing purposes.

Hello Cigogne

I'm sure you know your business, but if I may, since you mention that there are several factors that can alter the end results of colors on a monitor I fail to see how that makes it better than the Methuen book when making comparisons. I have Photoshop and I've done some with it, but when I changed monitors a year ago and called up some older photos I was shocked to see the shift in contrast and brightness in what I had thought were perfect shots when I worked on them. By using the RGB or CMKY data in the Datafile it will be subject to any of the weakness you mentioned when displayed on a monitor. True the Methuen is not a solid color chip but every Methuen printed color will look the same no matter which Methuen copy I look at. So while I think it may help give people an Idea of what a color looks like I still wouldnt bet my first born on a monitor generated color alone.

Cheers
Flypaper

[Cigogne]

Flypaper,

I didn't say anything about better. Just wanted to show more information to add to the "Project Butterfly" studies. Nowadays we have more tools to play with. I wanted to point out some problems on both sides of the fence which is also helpful. The Methuen book is fine, just hard to get for most folks. The color space and how one calibrates his monitor is essential to getting good results if he doesn't want to spend his time or money to get the hard to find Methuen book.

As for your computer monitor display differences, isn't Photoshop that is the problem. It is monitor calibration. Plug and play with computer monitors isn't good enough. Also, flat panel LCD displays aren't as accurate as CRT type displays.

The CMYK numbers are accurate and fixed, basically like an ink formula and considered a stable and consistent color system... that is how Methuen prints their book, using CMYK codes in using either 4 or 6 colors. It is just your monitor that isn't. Monitor calibration is important to get better results.

Alan's results were aimed as a starting point for getting accurate print publishing results and calibrated for accurate CMYK output.

Keep up the good work... it helps us all understand more about color research and how to get the most accurate results.

[Sreiko]

I would like to be strait- Methuen have few editions and prints and chips are differ from edition to edition. Today we have more better color systems like the Pantone or so on. There is also option to scan color and there is many automotive workshop, even in Serbia, where actual color could be scaned and then precisely reproduced.

This is the fact about the monitors- as a professional illustrator I have many conflict with the customers who order the art. Simply they have to have top monitor to have display what I have. Also best calibrated.

Best aproach is to go into the deepth of the subject. Like providing of the essential chemical data about the partyicular color and best at all to prepare accurate mixes of the specific paint in regard to the target profile users. In our case this is modelers and they are most interest in this sphere.

So if anybody is interesting I can make Humbrol info about the colors and display it here. Off course, is the topic author agree. Must also say that great job in this way was done by Ian Huntley, separate from the crew from Project Butterfly. Interesting- they get the same result!!

Cheers

[PeeJay333]

I would be interested in Humbrol information, or a reference to any other available model enamel, such as the Testors Model Master series. I appreciate the effort everyone is putting into this.

PeeJay

[flypaper]

Originally Posted by PeeJay333

I would be interested in Humbrol information, or a reference to any other available model enamel, such as the Testors Model Master series. I appreciate the effort everyone is putting into this.

PeeJay

PeeJay...if you look at my chips and the notes on the cards you will see that they have Model Master references on them

Flypaper