Balkenkreuze of 425/17

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Lloyd:
Been awhile since we last communicated. The lower wing cross from Fok.DR.I 425/17 on display in Canberra was not completed. Because it was never completed to the 150mm wide white border gives an identity clue in checking other photographs. Go back and read my analysis in post of 16 June and check the photos yourself. All the photographs of MvR's all red (white rudder) Fok.DR.I taken at LeChelle Airfield from 26 March to 21 April 1918 is not of Fok.DR.I 425/17. Also it is not Fok.DR.I 152/17 because it was removed from service on or about 18 March 1918, and shipped Berlin. The only aircraft it could be is Fok.DR.I 477/17 as I have contended from day one. What this piece of fabric with the incompleted cross modification raises seriious doubt about the MvR combat reports that bothered me also, from day one . The Implication is, in regard to Fok.DR.I 425/17 was it was in the process of being painted for MvR, and the lower wing crosses had not been completely done when he was shot down on 21 April 1918.
1. After the acceptance of Fok.DR.I 425/17 to 19 April 1918, there is no data, information, records, accounting or the whereabouts of Fok.DR.I 425/17 until MvR flew it on 19 April 1918.
2. You have assumed it was at Jage Nr.1, however, that is not a fact, it is an assumption.
3. It is also not known, when Fok.DR.I 425/17 was picked by MvR, if he was the one who selected DR.I 425/17.
4. It is not known when it was painted. The implication is, it was in the process of being painted when he was shot down.
5. The photographh of the incomplete painted cross border confirms without question that the photos taken at LeChelle, of the red DR.I with the V blemish is not Fok.DR.I 425/17.
6. The Fok.with the V Blemish isin fact, Fok.DR.I 477/17.
That is very substantial evidence.
Blue skies Lloyd,
Dan-San

[Thomas Trauner]

Hello all

thanks for any comments to this threat. I know, that Hans is in Denmark for the next two weeks and will answer then.

So please don´t wonder if he, who raised the question gives no commend at the moment.

Thanks.

Thomas

[Laserlloyd]

Hi Dan-San:

Yes, the lower wing cross held at AWM does have the March 17, 1918 Balkenkreuz style. I think this was was more common at that time due to the amount of cross changes in a short time (IMO). This can be seen in other photos of different Dr.I's. I should have made that more clearer as I was narrowing on the two fuselage crosses (RCMI, Omaka). It should be noted that the Lower Wing cross was not changed correctly (IMO) to the March 17, 1918 Balkenkreuz order. The width of the Eisernes Kreuz was not followed as the Balkenkreuz cross show a shorter beam width with the end of the Eisernes Kreuz extending past the beam width causing these points to stick out past the newer beam width.

The top wing cross held at AWM also show the March 17, 1918 Balkenkreuz style.

The rudder is a bit of mystery too but I believe the fabric was replaced and would have had just the one Balkenkreuz style of April 10 order.

It also needs to be said that there is no factory streaked camouflage on any of the 425/17 samples. The only other color found would be the factory blue on the bottom surface as also seen in the 20mm side bleed in the RCMI sample located at the bottom edge were the lower longeron would be. It's hard to see in the photo posted here but you can still see it. Alan's high res photos clearly shows the 20mm blue border. I have excluded the new gray anomaly streaks that is showing up in many of the the samples.

Dan-San I have tried to stay away from the photo controversy and just talk about the fabric sample. As you know there are these two main theory's on which plane is in the photo. I hope that one day we will have more photographic and or document evidence to proves which one it is. Just like you, I would like not to debate this subject anymore as we have done this many time in the past until new evidence comes to light. I will say that it could be one of the two but what is more important to me is Fabric samples from 425/17 them self.

The piece of fabric that you once owned, was this the piece clipped from the RCMI top right corner sample?

For all the others that would like to learn more on this please read the old threads on this subject as there are several.

Lloyd...

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Lloyd:
There is no longer a debate, it is now an established fact the the Fok.DR.I with the v blemish is not Fok.DR.I 425/17. There is no debate, the photographs proved the V blemished DR.I was not Fok.DR.I 425/17.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Laserlloyd]

Hi Dan-San:

Are you referring to this one:


I'm not sure if 425/17 or any of MvR's planes are in this photo. Ferko said the plane on the right is 452/17 or 152/17 but it has that streaking on it so I know it not 425/17. In the next set of photo it show 425/17 (imo) next to Wenzl's 178/17 which would place it the forth one in the flightline here. I have Peter's Hi-Res photo of this and it just to grainy to tell.

Now if it is the forth from the right them we can't see the lower wing cross as there is a person standing in the way.

Here are two close ups of the plane next to Wenzl's 178/17.




Greg has indicated this to be 152/17 but Peter indicates these to be 425/17.

If these are not 425/17 along with the three photos of the all red trip at Lechelle airfield as you have indicated then there is more then one all red Dr.I? If I understanding what your saying the 425/17, 152/17 and 477/17 were all red?

Now onto the second photo you can see the lower wing cross but its to hard to see if it matches the AWM lower wing cross.

As far as I'm concerned we still don't know which planes these are, all we are doing is making logical guesses.

One interesting thing is the rudder on Wenzl's 178/17 in the third photo, the work number and Fokker logo have been painted over or it's a new rudder. I can't see any signs of the Eisernes Kreuz.

Lloyd...

[Dan_San_Abbott]

HI Lloyd:
Shortly after 18 March 1918, Fok..DR.I was shipped to Berlin. MvR never flew it again after 18 March 1918 as far as records go. It was not at LeChelle Airfield. The whereabouts of Fok,DR.I 425/17 is not known, there is no record of DR.I 425/17 prior to 19 April 1918.
The only ones we know about are Fok.DR.I 127/17 and Fok.DR.I 477/17. MvR as far as record go gained two victory while flying Fok.DR.I 127/17. Also MvR's main aircraft was Fok.DR.I 477/17, he scored 11 victories flying this machine.
MvR borrowed other DR.I machines to fly to other units on visits, they were not his machines, they were not painted red, one belonged to Jasta 6 when he visited Jasta 5.
It is very simple, Dr.152/17 was gone, It was not painted all red when MvR last flew it on 18 March 1918, while at Iwuy Airfield. Fok.DR.I 127/17 was painted simular to Fok.DR.I 152/17, there are photos that confirm the painting of these two machines. What is left is Dr.I 477/17, which before the MvR "combat Reports" appeared from nowhere, was convinced the everyone the all red Dr.I in Front opf the Besseneau Hangar at LeChelle on 26 March 1918, was Dr.I 477/17. From what I have been able to find out, is no one knows where they came from or who did the translation, and that Lloyd is a fact. By the way where are the actual MvR Combat reports, the original ones in German????? The next question is what where the translated combat reports made from???? We don't have an answer to that question either.
The All red Dr.I at LeChelle on 26 March 1918 was Fok.DR.I 477/17!
Blue skies Lloyd,
Dan-San

[JFM]

Hello,

Following along here. Couple of questions for clarity:

1. Regarding records showing MvR never flew 152/17 again after 18 March 1918: What records?

2. Regarding 152/17 not being all-red on 18 March 1918: What is the source?

3. What records first reveal 425/17's existence with JG1?

[Laserlloyd]

Originally Posted by JFM

3. What records first reveal 425/17's existence with JG1?

We have the accepted report on when it was accepted. Once it was accepted it would have taken about 10-14 day to be ship to the Armee Flug Park then delivered to the Jasta. This would place it there around the end of January.

From my understanding there is no other record of 425/17 other then the April 20th report in which he had claim 79 and 80. I think that's it.

I wounder if Peter K., or Norman would know about the J11 reports. Have you asked Greg? It would be nice to know if there is anything in Peter G. collection, Taz my know what he had.

Lloyd...

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi JFM:
1. Ref."Jagd in Flandern Himmel", Karl Bodenschatz. bottom of Page 171, Combat Report. 66. sieg) 18.3.1918, Quote; "Fok.Dr.I 152; rotes oberes Tragdeck, rote Haube, rote Laufräder u. roter Schwanz.
Ref. "THE FOKKER TRIPLANE",
by Alex Imrie.
Page.109, second paragraph. Quote:
"It is not known when this aircraft apparently 152/17 and completely overpainted red, was given to the museum by Kogenluft, but the machine's national insigniadisplay and manner of painting that they were contemporaryand not applied retrospectively. Therefore, some timeafter Richthofen's last victoryon this machineon 18 March 1918, it was painted red and was doubtless intended for further use inits all-red scheme as Richthofen's regular aircraft.
Comment. This is an assumption byAlex Imrie. MvR started using Fok.DR.I 477/17 at least by 24 March 1918. There is no record that MvR flew Dr.I152/17 after 18 March 1918.

2. Page 65, photo and caption 93.
3. "Jagd in Flandern Himmel" Bodenschatz, top of page 179, Combat report dated 20.4.1918.
In the late 1960 or early 1970s, Heinz Nowarra spoke at a Cross and Cockade meeting of the San Francisco Chapter at the Air National Guard H facility at the Hayward Airport. I asked what ever happened to Fok.DR.I 152/17? Heinz replied,"Right after his victory on 18 March 1918 it was sent to Berlin."
Blue skes JFM,
Dan-San

[RAGIII]

Dan, A few questions:
Lets assume that what you have been alluding to reference the MvR combat repots being bogus is true, and 477/17 was all red.
If the aircraft in the Wenzel lineup is indeed 477/17, and also the earlier DR1 at Lechelle is 477/17, then where are the numerous spots of flaked off red dope visible on the left fuselage in the earlier photos? Pretty convincing evidence to me that there was another all red tripe, just can't say whether it is 152/17 or 477/17.
How can you positively identify the tripe from the second series of photos as the same seen in the first? Unless I have missed something the only photos of the second lineup are from the left and would not show the V glitch?
What makes your evidence more conclusive than any other researchers?
The exact date and disposition of 152/17 are still in dispute! Can you prove positively that Imrie is wrong? I believe you are again stating something as fact that is clearly still open for debate. JMHO,

RAGIII