Balkenkreuze of 425/17

Hans · 24 June 2009, 09:37 AM

The website fokkerdvii.com holds this picture. It shows a monocolored machine with a blemish, quite similar to the well known 425-477-pictures.

http://fokkerdvii.com/pics/rudder-markings/477a.jpg

It seems that there are more sharp pictures where taken and also nearer to the aircraft as commonly know from the sources. What a pity that the Mil.Nr. is not readable...

H.

(By the way, I also think that the pics all shows 477/17. It's the easiest and best explanation)

Laserlloyd · 24 June 2009, 10:13 AM

Hans;

That's one of the three photo of this plane taken at LeChelle airfield. All three can be found in A.E. Ferko's book "Richthofen" a Windsock special were he list this as 425/17. The photo name you listed is from Dave Watts site. I have these photos listed from Peter Groze collection as 425/17. Don't let the name on the photo confirm the identity of this as I'm also in fault in my file names with some of my photos, I'm just too lazy to change them.

It was Ferko that said that when he looked at the original plane that he could see the "Fokker DR.I 425/17" on the side of the fuselage.

The other question that all of this is leading to is how many All red Dr.I where there. Evan Dan-San has posted many times saying that there was only one All red Dr.I. From all of this talk here we now have three, 152/17, 477/17 and 425/17.

It is clear that we just don't know and what we're left with is opinion.

Some believe that these photos are of 425/17, some believe that there of 477/17. Until we have better proof of this it is just our opinions and the debate will go on and on and we'll still be at square one in it true identity.

Lloyd..

CWatson · 24 June 2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Hans;

That's one of the three photos of this plane taken at LeChelle airfield.

There are four pictures from that series. I believe it was Dave Watts who posted the fourth here, it looks similar to the rear quarter shot but at a slightly different angle.

Quote:

It was Ferko that said that when he looked at the original plane that he could see the "Fokker DR.I 425/17" on the side of the fuselage.

I have heard this often. Is it known when and to whom?

Thanks again,
CWatson

Dan_San_Abbott · 24 June 2009, 11:26 AM

Hi Lloyd:
I have never said there was only one all red Fokker Triplane. Richthofen, flew two painted all red, Dr.I 477/17 and Dr.I 425/17 and the third machine painted all red was Dr.I 153/17, however, MvR never flew Dr.I 152/17 painted all red. It was painted all red sometime after his last flight on Dr.I 152/17 on 18 March 1918, while they were at Avenes-le Sec.
Blue skies Lloyd,
Dan-San

Laserlloyd · 24 June 2009, 01:15 PM

Hi Dan-San;

Sorry about that for some reason I had that stuck in my mind, I stand corrected.

Lloyd...

JFM · 24 June 2009, 02:13 PM

This is not new information but I'll toss in here the reminder that these men flew many more sorties than those in which they shot down an airplane. MvR never scored with 152/17 after 18 March, not necessarily that he never flew it again in combat, or planned to fly it again; that's unknown.

Same with 425/17. Why couldn't he have flown it between 24 March and 7 April and just not shot anything down with it until 20 April (after enduring almost two weeks of frequently inclement weather that often precluded flying any machine)? After all, he flew concurrent sorties/scored with multiple planes--as with No. 71 (127/17); Nos. 72, 73 (477/17); No. 74 (127/17); No. 75 (477/17); No. 76 (127/17). Could he have flown 425/17 as well and just not scored while flying it? My speculation is why not? For example, say he flew four sorties in one day, using 477/17, 425/17, 127/17, 477/17 respectively, and only scored on his third sortie with 127/17. He would have still flown the others that day, even without record (i.e., combat report/victory claim) of such.

I am not saying that this happened unquestionably with 152/17 and 425/17--I just don't know--but I offer that the possibility is reasonable enough that it ought not be discounted wantonly.

Laserlloyd · 24 June 2009, 03:03 PM

Jim;

This has been my thought too as to the lack documentation like a flight log of which planes he flew on every flight doesn't discount the use of a plane within his Jasta. I'm sure there are a lot more planes that he flew but since nothing happened during these flights nothing was noted in a combat report.

Do we know every plane he flew that was not a combat flight?

Lloyd...

Dan_San_Abbott · 25 June 2009, 12:25 PM

Hi Jim:
If you go back through my postings, I have repeatedly said, There is no record of MvR....." Of course there is that possibility. I deal with substantiated facts that are documented, not imagination or could haves. I have been reluctant to quote Mr.Nowarra, beause I can't substantiated his statement in documentation. However, If I am to believe Heinz Nowarra, MvR never flew Dr.I 152/17 after his 18 March 1918 victory. For those of you who don't know who Heinz Nowarra was, He is the one person that really opened the door to German WW1 aviation history in the early 1960s with his huge photograph collection and his books. I have bought from both.
Blue skies Jim,
Dan-San

JFM · 2 July 2009, 07:23 AM

Hi, Dan-San,

Sorry for the late response but my thread display here changed and the last pages of this thread were missing. Took this long for me to figure it out.

Just wanted to thank you for your take and say that stating there is no record yet a possibility is not "wanton discount." If that seemed a tad strong or unfair, it was unintentional; I know you research subjects and don't just throw stuff at the wall.

I also understand the reasons for your reluctance to quote Mr. Nowarra; similar reasons are why I ask so many questions about things!

Dan_San_Abbott · 2 July 2009, 07:17 PM

Hi Jim:
In his book "The Fokker Triplane" Alex Imrie on page 106, thinks, that due to the partial pre-17 March 1918 style with the incomplete fuselage cross, Fok.DR.I 152/17, quoting Mr. Imrie from photo caption 153.:
The most interesting aspect of its national insignia is that it has not been changed to the improved type Balkenkreuze, of thinner proportions introduced to Jasta 11 triplanes around mid-April 1918, but retains the over thick crosses. This suggests that 152/17 was no longer in first-line use when Richthofen was lost and would make it a ready contender for preservation.
This somewhat confirns what Mr. Nowarra had said to me.
Photograph 154. shows 152/17 in the identical markings of photo 153displayed in the Zeughaus in Berlin.
I don't believe this machine had been transferred to Jasta 5, as stated in "Jagdstaffel 5" by G.K.Merrill, on page 28 that lists all the Fok.DR.I received by Jasta 5. It lacks all the cross changes and its colors were not change from the markings shown in Photo 153 to the Green markings used by Jasta 5. There must be some error in the reported serial numbers.
Smoe fat to chew on.
Blue skies Jim,
Dan-San