Balkenkreuze of 425/17

Hans · 1 June 2009, 10:49 AM

Forumites,
I was asked to build MvR's last plane as a model by a friend. Fully aware that I may open an very old can of worms, I really would be interested how those remains in the Australian War Memorial match with the well known picture of the "guarded 425/17". As far as I see, the crosses does not match and maybe there is an explanation I failed to find yet. Please note that I do not wonder about the pristine condition on the photo compared to the museum's ones, but the style is different. On the museum crosses you clearly can see the remains of the old Eiserne Kreuze, even the white soroundings are still curved. Are simply both from the underside...? Any help?

Thank you!
Hans

Drdad · 2 June 2009, 05:09 AM

Hello Hans
Curious about your center photo of the AWM example of the 425/17 cross.
I took this photo in 2003 ( the calipers and ruler are mine ) and wondered how you came to see it. No objections of course. Seems to confirm six degrees of separation theory.
The photo of 425/17 shows only the tail crosses and the fuselage cross which had been altered to the straight cross as per Idflieg regs.
The photo examples in the AWM are the wing crosses which had not yet been converted to their final form at the time of the crash.
This airplane had three cross revisions in three months.
You are seeing the second and third versions .
Hugh Robinson

CWatson · 2 June 2009, 07:34 AM

Hans,
I have noticed and mentioned in the past the crosses did not match. It was explained to me age and wear have caused colors to change and others to flake off, I am not really convinced. The picture I posted of the other fuselage cross below looks closer but to be honest I am in the camp that the "Guarded Plane" may not be 425/17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drdad

Hello Hans
Curious about your center photo of the AWM example of the 425/17 cross.
I took this photo in 2003 ( the calipers and ruler are mine ) and wondered how you came to see it. No objections of course. Seems to confirm six degrees of separation theory.

Interesting, I have the same pic in my pc too. I may have snagged it off of here. I honestly do not remember where I got it

Quote:

The photo of 425/17 shows only the tail crosses and the fuselage cross which had been altered to the straight cross as per Idflieg regs.

To me the upper crosses look altered also though the proportions are off.

Quote:

The photo examples in the AWM are the wing crosses which had not yet been converted to their final form at the time of the crash.

My understanding of the crosses he has posted is one is from a lower wing and the other is from the left fuselage.

Quote:

This airplane had three cross revisions in three months.
You are seeing the second and third versions .
Hugh Robinson

I disagree. The fuselage and tail crosses in the "Guarded Plane" appear to to be in the final Idflieg reg.

Cliff · 2 June 2009, 07:59 AM

Your right hand pic is from the left fuselage side. You can see the '7" from the serial number in the lower left corner.

Cliff

Hans · 3 June 2009, 12:05 AM

Thank you folks!

I am aware that this a/c had three different styles of crosses. The side cross (thank you Cliff) clearly shows an overpainted white square. So we have the standard Fokker style with Eiserne Kreuze, after that Eiserne Kreuze with the regular 5cm border and at last the Balkenkreuze. But I do not understand why we are looking at the 2nd and 3rd versions...it should be all the 3rd version, the last version. And I still do not undestand where the middle cross with the curvature white borders was applied.

Drdad, I am pretty sure that I took these pictures from this side sometimes ago.

CWatson, I am really wondering why this triplane is guarded. I never saw any other guarded german a/c, the only ones I saw are foreign a/c forced land outside of airfields. What was the reason for this? Preventing souvenir hunters after the demise of MvR...?

H

UPZZZZ · 3 June 2009, 12:55 AM

The guards are german soldiers not british/canadian/australian ones!

Hans · 3 June 2009, 04:00 AM

Of course they are. That's exactly my problem. Why is a german plane guarded on a german airfield by german troops?

H

CWatson · 3 June 2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans

CWatson, I am really wondering why this triplane is guarded. I never saw any other guarded german a/c, the only ones I saw are foreign a/c forced land outside of airfields.

I have wondered the same thing myself.

Quote:

What was the reason for this? Preventing souvenir hunters after the demise of MvR...?

H

We will never know for sure. What we do know is 425/17 was all red with a white rudder. You can see by the planes remains what type of crosses it had.

Biber · 3 June 2009, 08:41 AM

I just can't help wondering about the discrepancies between the authenticated extant crosses and original photographs of 425/17. The crosses suggest the plane was simply a mess of a paint job, yet the photos seem to suggest otherwise. Surely the photography doesn't hide that much, or, conversely, the successive paint quality (from layer/revision to layer/revision) couldn't have been that poor to have worn or been preserved like that.

just a thought

B

Raineranton · 12 June 2009, 05:37 PM

Hello,

I found this picture in the book "Fokker Dr. I Triplane" - by Paul Leaman.

It would be described as follows: "Fokker Dr. I 425/17 with its final markings. The crosses have all been altered from Eisernes Kreuz to Balkenkreuz, and the white fields overpainted in red.- It is thought that this fotograph was taken during a visit by von Richthofen to FA(A) 227 at Belle Aise Ferme aerodrom." So, this is the reason, why the maschine was guarded.