unknown Sopwith Camel with an "M"

[Raineranton]

Hello All,

Who kindly can tell me something about this Sopwith Camel?
Is it from 208 Squadron? Who was the pilot? I think it came down on the German side of the front....
Unfortunately there is no aircraft number seen....

Any help would be highly appreciated.

Rainer

[Gregvan]

Hallo Raineranton,

I'm rather surprised by the deafening silence of the response to your beautiful photo! The markings would seem to indicate this Camel came from No. 43 Squadron, some time after 22 March 1918.

I don't know what 43 Sqdn pilot flew this machine, but it's only one of many such a/c lost over the German lines (apparently). On 29 August 1918, the Sqdn was escorting DH9's bombing Soumain and lost no less than 5 pilots. I'll have to look into this further.

Thanks for sharing the photo!!

Greg

[Cigogne]

Greg beat me to it. I was going to say No 43 Squadron as well.

[Raineranton]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

The markings would seem to indicate this Camel came from No. 43 Squadron, some time after 22 March 1918.

Thank you very much, Greg.

Well, I´ve figured out the 43 Sqdn losses of the book Jasta War Chronology between June and mid September 1918. Who could be the hottest candidate for this picture? Which one could we preclude from the list? I think when the pilot was killed, maybe we could it cancel from the list?

Could the “M” an evidence to the name of the pilot?
Have someone any other ideas?

Thanks,
Rainer

09. June 1918, D1844, Lt. JH Johnson, POW/DOW, Jasta 22
15. July 1918, D1778, 2/Lt. TE Babbitt, KIA, Jasta 2
19. July 1918, F6150, Lt. VRSVT Irvine, KIA, Jasta 41
25. July 1918, D1870, Lt. RE Meredith, KIA, Jasta 2
25. July 1918, D1894, Lt. FS Coghill, POW, Jasta 2
25. July 1918, D1897, 2/Lt. N Wilson, POW/DOW, Jasta 2
30. July 1918, F6087, Lt. LH Parsons, Inj., Jasta 10
29. August 1918, C8215, Cpt. LG Loudoun, POW, Jasta 32b/26/57
29. August 1918, D1785, Sgt. ACT Harbour, POW, Jasta 32b/26/57
29. August 1918, D6542, Lt. WK MacFarlane, POW, Jasta 32b/26/57
29. August 1918, D9470, Lt. SE Crookell, POW, Jasta 32b/26/57
29. August 1918, E1485, 2/Lt. W Omerod, KIA, Jasta 32b/26/57

[Chock]

There is a possibility that the M relates to a name, but it is a remote one. Most RAF squadrons used letters A-F for A Flight, G-N for B Flight and M-R for C Flight, pointing to it being either a C Flight or possibly a B Flight machine. Letters after that sequence were often assigned to spare/back up aircraft or some such, but the system wasn't always rigidly stuck to, since aircraft were flown in and out from squadrons to repair depots quite regularly, and they did swap around a bit as maintenance routines mixed things up. Sometimes the CO's would use unusual letters as a kind of perk too, which could lead to out of sequence lettering in flights, but these were more often letters such as W or Z or whatever, or sometimes A, since it has leader connotations. But unlike in the German air service, where initials were common, it was kind of frowned upon to be too ostentatious in such matters in the somewhat stuffy British military persona.

Even in WW2 when RAF Squadron leaders were allowed to use personal letter codes, it was officially discouraged since it it was thought that it might single them out for special attention from the enemy, which is an unlikely prospect in a swirling dogfight, but the thought nevertheless prevailed. However, the general opinion from many pilots was that when they had fought their way up through promotions, they were damn well going to have the perk of a personal marking.

Al

[bristol scout]

That certainly looks like a RUSTON, PROCTOR transfer on the plywood under the cockpit....

If it is then the following are some of the Ruston, Proctor airframes that served with 43 squadron

B2431, 2510, 2342, 2351, 5620.

C8263, 8247, 8281.

D1748, 1785.

E1467.

Dave.

[RussGannon]

Hi All

Some light on 43 Sqn's show on 29 Aug 18. 15 strong they were escorting 12 DH9's of 98 Sqn on bombing raid on Somain (25 km behind German lines). Over target the were engaged by 30 to 40 DVII's. First to attack were a 10 strong Jasta 57, but also soon in the mix were Jasta 1 (DH claim), Jasta 28 (Camel claim), Jasta 32 (DH & Camel claim) & Jasta 59 (DH claim) as well as DH4's of 57 Sqn raiding nearby Denain. Strahle's Js 57 claimed three Camel's & two DH's. Photo's of two of the downed Camels can be found in the Strahle article in the old C&C US Vol 12 #3. One was marked '1' (Capt Louden pow?) and the other lying on its back was marked 'B'. I also know that Sgt Harbour's Camel D1785 was marked with a 'Z'. Good photo of this Camel cJuly 18 lined up next to Woollett's venrable D6402.

Now Chaz Bowyers 'Sopwith Camel - King of Combat' provides data that B2323 of 43 Sqn was marked with an 'M'. But this represents one of the earlist Camel's issued to Squadron. None the less it confirms 'M' was used.

One of 43 Sqn's losses landed on the Jasta 57 a/d at Ainche - forced down by Ltn Koch of Jasta 32 - maybe our photo represents this Camel?

For the record five De Havilands were also claimed all well inside German lines however only two actually came down in German lines, whilst two more were able to force land in British lines whilst another returned shot up.

43 Sqn made 4 claims - a DVII crashed in flames to Capt Banks (most certainly Vfw Knobel of Js 57 burnt), another DVII crashed to Lt Weaver whilst two more were seen to fall OOC and were credited jointly to the 5 missing pilots. There were also at least 6 DH claims. Strahle also notes that Flg Helcher made a forced landing near Cambrai. Unfortunately there are no surviving KTB's for the other Jasta's involved, so we cannot guage the veracity of all these claims.

Contrary to asertion in JWC - Jasta 26 were not involved - they along with Stab of JG III engaged 'Sopwiths' of 73 Sqn later in the morning and right on the front lines area of Monchy - four JG III claims but no 'hard' 73 Sqn losses - 73 Sqn also made three DVII OOC claims in return.

Cheers Russ

[bristol scout]

Hi Russ,
For a while I thought it may have been the same pilot whose 'Pup' was knocked down by Osterroth on 12th April marked with an 'M'---from memory.

But of course when I checked it out --Mack was made prisoner at that time---and could'nt of been around later (in any Squadron)

Funny how that photo. of Macks 'Pup' came to mind straight away though

Dave. P.S. Do you 'see' the Ruston, Proctor trademark--or is it just me?

[RussGannon]

Hi Bristol

On the point of markings - RNAS squadrons did use surname letters in many cases as you point out M for Mack. Much same as used by several Jasta's.

Not that good on finepoints of aircraft identification.

One interesting one re 43 Sqn's losses on 29 Aug - TSTBF gives 2Lt M Omerod as KIA not MIA (kia) which everywhere else implies a plane which came down on British side. The report also gives Fienvillers which in fact was 43 Sqn aerodrome! He was certainly on the mission as he is credited with fifth share of the two OOC's, but I'm wondering whether he was wounded and then crashed on return?????

On same tack the JG III / Js 26 claims are for 'Sopwiths' which is a pretty good indicator that they were 'jenseits' (other side) claims! That is to say as they diappeared over the Allied side, then a more precise identification was not possible. None the less time & loc details perfect match for scrap with 73 Sqn.

Cheers Russ