Nieuport 17 "X"

Hal Oele · 23 October 2009, 07:41 AM

Hi folks, dear Russ Gannon...

During my research to the R-Plane operations 1917 and 1918,
i met the relatives of the "first" pilot of R.26, who started his front-career
as a young pilot with FFA 23 in early 1916 (by the way - seven pilots and observers from FFA 23 joined between 1915 and 1917 the R-Kommando...).

In his photoalbum i found also the attached ones:

1. Wintgens victory from 2.8.1916 - Morane 5177

2. Frankl´s victory from 2.8.1916 - Morane 5181

3. Frankl´s victory from 3.8.1916 - Nieuport 17bis "X" 1442

So, i checked together with ManfredT some published data´s - and now there´s a problem!
All information from the last years, do not list the 3.8.1916.
Only US C&C 26-2 (1978) has Frankl´s 7. victory listed (as a Farman?).

Jasta´s, KeK & Co are not my subject, but everytime i checked some published books there are more questionmarks as before...

Perhaps there are specialists out there who can clear this case up...

Many greetings from Bonn
Hal

Immo_Frese · 24 October 2009, 03:26 AM

Hal & Manfred,

this is only a guess, but perhaps Frankls victim on 3 Aug 1916 was a french Nieuport? Esc N 103 lost two Nieuports this day. The pilots were Sgt Jean Mafert et MdL Debrod. Both MIA.

Esc N 103 was equipped with Nieuports 17 at this time and it was stationed at Cachy as part of Groupe de combat de la Somme. So Frankl and the pilots of Esc N 103 had the same area of operations during August 1916.

Immo

ManfredT · 24 October 2009, 08:10 AM

Immo,

Bailey and Cony recorded Sgt. Maffert as the victim (probably) of Vfw. Müller, as you know. So MdL Debrod seems to be good choice.

Interesting the photo on page 254 of the excellent French book "Les escadrilles": Nieuport 17 of Escadrille 103, No. 1804, September 1916, with a roman VIII.

The Aerodrome needs urgently more good advice of our French readers.

Hal & Manfred

Gregvan · 24 October 2009, 08:12 AM

Hello Hal, Manfred and Immo,

The Nieuport photographed with Frankl on 3.8.16 was indeed a French Nieuport from Escadrille N.103. The camouflage is typical of French Nieuports from this time and the large white "X" is very characteristic of personal insignia of N. 103. Quoting from Norman Franks' book Sharks Among Minnows, Nieuport No. N1442 was flown by MdL Debrod of N103 and was lost on 3 August 1916.

Each aircraft in N103 was identified by a Roman numeral on the aft fuselage - the extension of this to the top wing is very interesting. If we could see more of the fuselage side in front of the "X" insignia, we might be able to see a red five-pointed star which was the unit emblem of N.103 at this time - but we cannot see this area in the photo posted by Hal.

You will probably be familiar with the various excellent photos of Nieuport 17 No. 1420 in German captivity. It too was a machine from N.103, and displayed a white V" on the aft fuselage as well as the red star. I believe that this was the aircraft of MdL Seigneurie of Esc. N 103, who went missing on 2 July 1916. He was possibly the victim of von Althaus, who claimed a Nieuport that day. Coincidentally, I have also seen photos of Nieuport No. 1420 in another album of a member of FFA 23.

Anyway, French records show that on 3 August 1916, Esc. N 103 lost Nieuport No. 1442, flown by AdL Debrod. The unit also lost Sergent Jean Mafert in Nieuport N833 that same day. This is sometimes credited as

Hans Müller's third victory, near Verdun at 0908 hrs (edit: however, see Immo's post below!).

As to why Frankl (apparently) failed to receive credit for this victory - or if this victory was "lost" in the records and archives, I have no answer. It would not be the only time that Frankl forced an Allied machine down behind German lines but did not receive credit for a full victory, I think.

Best regards,

Greg

Immo_Frese · 24 October 2009, 09:58 AM

Hello Manfred & Greg,

I really doubt, that Maffert (another source spelled him Mafert) was shot down by Vfw.

Hans Müller. Verdun is too far away from the Somme-area and Esc N 103 was part of french 6. Army in August 1916, fighting in the area around Amiens.

Immo

Gregvan · 24 October 2009, 10:17 AM

Thanks for that information, Immo. I should have checked further, and stated that Mafert is sometimes credited to

Hans Müller! Thanks for the correction. I have edited my previous post.

Greg

Hal Oele · 24 October 2009, 11:57 AM

Herzlichen Dank Immo,
and also many thanks Greg...

Its always a good feeling to met somebody, who could fill some blank fields in this giant jigsaw-puzzle called "Luftfahrtgeschichte".

Greg - i´m really sure, that this Nieuport was a official victory for Frankl in his time. Look at all the people on the photographs, could you imagine more eyewitness for a claim?

What i don´t understand:
Back in 1978 Mr. Jeffery Sands published via Rick Duiven his listing of Frankl´s victorys in the last issue of US Cross & Cockade 26-2.
This list contains also the 3. August 1916!
I do not know the sources from Mr. Sands, but this information didn´t come from a crystall-ball...
So, what happened between 1978 and today?
Who decided to clean up the information?
Where is Frankl´s claim gone???

Here is the last picture from the 3. August 1916 series...
Leftmost (the guy who looked into the camera) a unknown member of FFA 23 which was based at Roupy.

Tschüss
Hal

Gregvan · 24 October 2009, 12:26 PM

Hello Hal,

Thanks so much for that additional photo. As you say, Frankl's victory probably was confirmed in 1916. I know Jeffery Sands, and I know he is a diligent researcher.

However, I don't know what happened to the record of this "7th victory" at Lihons from 1978 to today.

I also don't know how it could have been recorded as a "Farman", since they obviously had the wreckage of a Nieuport right there in front of them.

Curiously. on 1 July 1916, Frankl had forced down BE2c No. 4146 of No. 12 Sqdn, thus capturing 2/Lt. Laurence Arthur Wingfield (also near Lihons?). The Sands listing says that Wingfield was killed, but he was actually captured very much alive. There are photos of Wingfield posing with Frankl, and of Frankl seated on the wheel of Wingfield's BE2c. However, Frankl was not credited with a victory on that day, though he claimed the BE. Frankl wrote a detailed description of that incident which appeared in Flugsport; in it he described how his gun jammed and he was able to force Wingfield down without firing a shot. Thus, Lance B has tentatively concluded (and I agree) that since Frankl did not actually shoot at Wingfield, he was not credited with a full Luftsieg? Just another curious incident.

Thanks again,

Greg

RussGannon · 25 October 2009, 08:27 PM

For what its worth the two Moranes were from 60 Sqn RFC. They were part of a four machine patrol which came under 'Archie' fire at 1630 over Pouilly. And as far as the surviving crews were concerned both missing machines recieved direct hits with observer of one seen to fall out. No doubt they were credited to Wintgens and Frankl, but one has to suspect that they merely finished off two already stricken machines.

Cheers Russ

Hal Oele · 27 October 2009, 04:29 AM

Thanks a lot Greg and Russ...

Greg, is it possible to ask Mr. Sands about his sources?
As i told you before, Jasta´s are not my subject, but i have a very good feeling when "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

So, here is what our young pilot has written before he died two years later as 1. Flugzeugführer of R.26...

Tschüss
Hal