Wolff's Plum Albatros

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by REID_CBH_REG

It's funny I came across this I was about to ask the same question....I was windering did the aircraft also carry a personal marking or was it just painted??? While I'm here can anybody tell m anything about Allmenroeders Green Albatros I'm having trouble finding any good reference material on it.

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship of the Aerodrome - where the greatest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. Werner Voss fan here.

[JFM]

Hello,

I know of no green Albatros flown by Allmenröder. In March 1917 Ltn Lübbert described Allmenröder's plane as "field gray." In late April Allmenröder began flying 629/17, and photographs show the entire fuselage was washed in a dark color, likely red, with a white front cowl, spinner, and elevators.

That I am not familiar with a green Allmenröder Albatros and have never heard of such a machine does not mean there wasn't one, mind you. Perhaps it has eluded me. What is the source of the green Alb description?

[Intrepid]

Lothar von Ricthofen reported the colours as follows ( no date given) :

Shaeffer had elevator, rudder and rear fuselage in black,

Allmenroeder was the same , except in white,

Wolfe was the same , except in green,

L vR was the same except in yellow.

It was noted that by April MvR had relenquished his monopoly of Red and that all machines of Jasta 11 had adopted a red motif.

source : Ricthofen by Ed Ferko.
The Imperial German Eagles in World War I Vol. I by Lance Bronnenkant






Marlon Schultz

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
Square 81 is pretty close to Metheun 15F5 and C.C.304. For what it is worth. The problem is the original definition was in the eye of the beholder that defined it as "plum purple."
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[JFM]

Hello,

I believe the date of Lothar's description of the red Albs and their individual colors has to reference between 21 April--the arrival (according to Ferko) of Allmenröder's 629/17--and 13 May, when LvR was wounded and out of action until late September, by which time Schaefer, Wolff and Allmenröder were dead.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that after 13 May J11 didn't fly red planes--of course, they did--just that LvR wasn't around after that date and so his description of when the Staffel transitioned to red with individual colors must have occured before then.

[Gregvan]

Hi Guys,

I can't add anything more to this discussion than what has already been very capably summarized by JFM and others.

First of all, to my knowledge there is no proof that D.III 2099/16 was ever flown by Kurt Wolff. The photo of this D.III overturned on the RR tracks was published in Thor Goote's propagandistic novel about MvR and Jasta 11, entitled ...'rangehn ist Alles!, with the photo caption "Notlandung nach Luftkampf". Some years ago, Nick Hauprich, a veteran MvR collector sent me a print of this photo claiming it showed Wolff's D.III after he was shot down on 11 July 1917. I published the photo in my old Albatros Productions book on "von Richthofen's Flying Circus" with a very tentative caption. However, it clearly cannot be Wolff's Alb from the incident on 11 July, as Bodenschatz says that Wolff's Albatros returned to the airfield, and Wolff "clambers out rather laboriously, holding his left hand out in front of him..." So, it's just part of the Richthofen legend that associates this photo with Wolff, as far as I know.

As JFM said, on 3 March 1917, Ltn. Eduard "Edy" Lübbert laconically described the markings of some of his Staffel mates. Kurt Wolff flew a violette Pflaum, while Allmenroeder flew a feldgrau, or field-grey, crate. It is certain that at this stage, the pilots of Jasta 11 flew aircaft identified by highly individual color schemes, with the color (probably) applied to the entire fuselage - and perhaps tailplane. Richthofen's red D.III was only one among several brightly colored aircraft of the Staffel at this time. It would be my guess, and that's all that it is, that Wolff's machine was painted 'plum purple' on the fuselage and tail, possibly obscuring the crosses. To my knowledge, there's no evidence that Allmeroder ever flew a "green" Albatros, though 'field grey' sometimes had a distinct greenish tinge.

Interestingly, both 60 Sqdn vets "Willy" Fry and his friend "Grid" Caldwell described an encounter with what might have been Jasta 11 on 29 January 1917. Fry wrote: "They were all colours of the rainbow and led by a blood-red plane. I specially remember the dull blood-red hue of that machine, for it was nothing like as showy as the others which were all painted in bright mixed colours and patterns, in vivid contrast to the snow-white clouds below them."

Caldwell wrote in a letter to Fry: "I remember a pretty hectic little do, Meintjes, you and I had in early '17 when we changed a line patrol into an offensive patrol and ran into 8 good Hun Albatri led by a red fellow which could well have been our friend Richthofen."

As JFM pointed out, it's only after mid to late April 1917 that many of the Jasta 11 Albatrosse were painted largely red on their fuselages, in order to render Richthofen's machine less conspicuous. At that point - according to Lothar's off-handed description - Wolff apparently flew a largely red-fuselaged D.III (possibly 632/17) with green trim. However, it's worth noting that fellow Jasta 11 pilot Ltn. Georg Simon flew D.III 2015/16 which had a red fuselage with a green band around it - at least, he was captured in it. Remember, Lothar was writing this little account after the war, many months after the fact, and in my opinion he sort of blended some hazy recollections of Jasta 11 markings into his vague little description.

Also, in my opinion, it would be a fruitless endeavor to attempt to apply any very specific color notation from Methuen or Federal Standards, etc to Wolff's "plum purple" Albatros, based only on a brief mention by Lübbert! Better to go to the grocery story, buy a ripe plum and try to match that!!

Greg

[wings]

After reading many British combat reports, I have concluded that "red" frequently refers to the reddish color of the Albatros wings camo. You frequently read about "red and green" scouts or "red and green" wings.

[GMU]

In relation to Almenröder's Albatros being described as “field gray”, I have to say that “Feldgrau” is a tricky color to describe. Under certain lighting conditions it can be seen more like a sort of green rather than grey.

Believe me, I collect original period “feldgrau” uniforms and other stuff, and sometimes these things look greenish, other times more like grayish, and they can even look bluish depending on the lighting they get.

Look at my Ulanka in my avatar. It is feldgrau and looks gray, but under the sun it is more like green.

Perhaps Almenröder's feldgaru could have been seen as green by some.


George

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi Guys,

I can't add anything more to this discussion than what has already been very capably summarized by JFM and others.

First of all, to my knowledge there is no proof that D.III 2099/16 was ever flown by Kurt Wolff. The photo of this D.III overturned on the RR tracks was published in Thor Goote's propagandistic novel about MvR and Jasta 11, entitled ...'rangehn ist Alles!, with the photo caption "Notlandung nach Luftkampf". Some years ago, Nick Hauprich, a veteran MvR collector sent me a print of this photo claiming it showed Wolff's D.III after he was shot down on 11 July 1917. I published the photo in my old Albatros Productions book on "von Richthofen's Flying Circus" with a very tentative caption. However, it clearly cannot be Wolff's Alb from the incident on 11 July, as Bodenschatz says that Wolff's Albatros returned to the airfield, and Wolff "clambers out rather laboriously, holding his left hand out in front of him..." So, it's just part of the Richthofen legend that associates this photo with Wolff, as far as I know.

As JFM said, on 3 March 1917, Ltn. Eduard "Edy" Lübbert laconically described the markings of some of his Staffel mates. Kurt Wolff flew a violette Pflaum, while Allmenroeder flew a feldgrau, or field-grey, crate. It is certain that at this stage, the pilots of Jasta 11 flew aircaft identified by highly individual color schemes, with the color (probably) applied to the entire fuselage - and perhaps tailplane. Richthofen's red D.III was only one among several brightly colored aircraft of the Staffel at this time. It would be my guess, and that's all that it is, that Wolff's machine was painted 'plum purple' on the fuselage and tail, possibly obscuring the crosses. To my knowledge, there's no evidence that Allmeroder ever flew a "green" Albatros, though 'field grey' sometimes had a distinct greenish tinge.

Interestingly, both 60 Sqdn vets "Willy" Fry and his friend "Grid" Caldwell described an encounter with what might have been Jasta 11 on 29 January 1917. Fry wrote: "They were all colours of the rainbow and led by a blood-red plane. I specially remember the dull blood-red hue of that machine, for it was nothing like as showy as the others which were all painted in bright mixed colours and patterns, in vivid contrast to the snow-white clouds below them."

Caldwell wrote in a letter to Fry: "I remember a pretty hectic little do, Meintjes, you and I had in early '17 when we changed a line patrol into an offensive patrol and ran into 8 good Hun Albatri led by a red fellow which could well have been our friend Richthofen."

As JFM pointed out, it's only after mid to late April 1917 that many of the Jasta 11 Albatrosse were painted largely red on their fuselages, in order to render Richthofen's machine less conspicuous. At that point - according to Lothar's off-handed description - Wolff apparently flew a largely red-fuselaged D.III (possibly 632/17) with green trim. However, it's worth noting that fellow Jasta 11 pilot Ltn. Georg Simon flew D.III 2015/16 which had a red fuselage with a green band around it - at least, he was captured in it. Remember, Lothar was writing this little account after the war, many months after the fact, and in my opinion he sort of blended some hazy recollections of Jasta 11 markings into his vague little description.

Also, in my opinion, it would be a fruitless endeavor to attempt to apply any very specific color notation from Methuen or Federal Standards, etc to Wolff's "plum purple" Albatros, based only on a brief mention by Lübbert! Better to go to the grocery story, buy a ripe plum and try to match that!!

Greg

Thought it bears repeating. I love it when Greg says these things its like re-reading his books for Albatros Ltd. and Osprey.

[firblatz]

Wow - thank you all! The knowledge base here is unbeleivable.