Fokker E.V wing color preview .....

[womenfly2]

That is very interesting Dan. To visualize what degree of flatness this was could you please compare it to say house paint, like semi-gloss, eggshell, flat ...? Something we could relate to.

Your input is alway fascinating.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

'14-'18;
Matt finish was used, in lacquer were in used and it was made Cohn, Berlin-Neukolln. It was specified for finishing coat on printed fabric and plywood fuselages that had be stained or painted as a top coat.
Blue skies David,
Dan-San

Thanks for the answer Dan-San,

I am completely confused about this though, because I have never seen a WW1 dope or varnish that I can prove was applied flat. Every single sample I have seen has a sheen to it, to one extent or another, especially if a protected sample is able to be obtained. I have been told that matting agents had not been invented by this time.

Cheers,

David.

[riggingitis]

Hello,

I am have reached the stage in my 1/32nd Fokker E.V project where a decision has to be made reguarding the finish of the wing. Having read the various arguments for, and against the four colour scheme, I have decided to give the 'new' scheme a try. However, with regard to the varnish used, I am still undecided. Mr Abbott is saying that matte varnish was used on plywood surfaces, ie the wing, yet on various pages of the Windsock Datafile 25, the undersurfaces look decidedly shiny, especially on page 21. The bottom photograph shows a clear reflection of the white(?) fuselage markings.
Also, the distinctive rippling is picked out clearly by a shiny surface. If it was matte, would this be the case?
Any help would be appreciated.
Once this model is painted, there is no return!

Dennis.

[womenfly2]

Well Dennis, you could do it in a Matt finish if you are going to weather her as if in service for a few months.

Otherwise you could split the difference and be safe, semi-gloss.
Either way, it will be great.

Here is a quote from Achim on the wing ... interesting.

As a sidenote again: The streaked effect can come out more or less evidient, depending on the worker and what and how he is doing.

To be honest, this was not intented by me, because I never liked the streaky application idea at all.

Stains are not supposed to do anything but to colour the wood. The streaks are just a side effect. It was war time and these wings had to be coloured quick, no one certainly had time and interest in making them look nice as a piece of furniture for your living room. The areas had to be green and brown. That´s all. Stains are a natural choice for that type of work. No wood worker ever would think about oil paints or anything else to colour wood surfaces, especially taking the weight into consideration.

My wing is sealed with a coat of boat varnish. There is no special UV protection at all. If the stains fade out, so it shall be. In ten years we have what a 10 year old Fokker built wing would look like.

On another sideline: The images above are not true photographs, but digital captures. On the second one only the colour information was removed with the computer.

I have some old fashion true black and white photographs taken with panchromatic film and the streakes come out even more obvious there. And this is still small format film.

I am still working on my "contemporary photography" thing and want o take some shots using orthochromatic glas plates. I am sure these may even more look like streakes then, especially because of the very high resolution this big negatives provide.

It is just the way the film sees it and what you see when looking at the photographs.

All we can try to do is to recreate using as close to original methods and materials as possible to give you an idea about how it looked back then.

And yet another amazing thing is the way you see it first hand. It may surprise you or not, but if you stand before that wing and ask somebody next to you what he sees, he answers: "The wing is camouflaged in an ugly green and a uggly brown. But do you know what? Both colours together look pretty nice on second glance".

You may then ask: "And? Anything else?". The reply is: "Yes, nice crosses!".

Nobody I asked ever took note of the streaks at all....

And another interesting fact is the following: When you stand beside the aeroplane with the wing mounted, you have a really hard time to tell there is two colour on at all. All you see is a reflecting big surface of some dark colour. This is due to the high gloss finish. You simply can not tell the colours rom a certain angles, unless you are a far enough away or looking at it from above. Most of the black and white photographs I have taken do not show any difference between the green and the brown at all. If it would not be my wing, I would probably think it is stains in one single colour....

I for one also never have read in any contemporary description of these planes that anyone ever pointed out the streaked top wing. Is there any note like that. If not, I am not surprised now at all.

Cheers!

Achim

Fact is that many photographs of the E.V shows a very high glossy surface. You can even see refelctions of persons or fuselage crosses in it.....

Cheers!

Achim

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lady and Gentlemen:
In the photos I have, when the wing is at acute angles the surface isflat without sheen. Look at the photos of the fok.E.V in the FOKKER D.VIII DATAFILE, 25 by Peter Grosz. Look at the all the rear view phots, pages, 3, 5, 6, 9, 1012, 13,14 of Udet, 23, 24, 26 and 27 all in bright sunlight. Not one of these photos show any glossy reflection. The plywood surface of the wing is finished flat. In very acute angle onthe lower surface you can see a reflection of the white in the fuselage cross.
The wing is finished with matt lacquer as required by the BLV.
Blue skies to all,
Dan-San

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi everyone,

I am not going to say too much, because it will result in this thread becoming a PC10 style idiotic argument but there are numerous photographs in existence which show that a great number of First World War aeroplanes had semi gloss to high gloss finishes. There is absolutely no doubt that any gloss would have become relatively dull reasonably quickly. The best information I have been working with for the last few years is that paints, varnishes and dopes when mixed have a naturally glossy finish, and that matt paints, dopes and varnishes are dulled to a matt finish with matting agents. My best information suggests that matting agents simply did not exist during the First World War. I am very interested to hear that the BLV specified matt varnish, but I have not seen such a document, so I can't comment. The first thing that is evident when authentic relics are examined is that paints, varnishes and dopes were often applied sparingly, so even a gloss varnish would be soaked up by the grain of the timber, and as most of us know, paints varnishes and dopes tended to be of relatively poor quality, and as a result became dull relatively quickly.

Where oh where is Alan Toelle? I am sure he could offer some extremely useful advice and information.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi David:
There was no Fok.E.V in front line Jasta longer than 19 or so days. That is hardly long enough to rid of the new smell. least wise tarnish the finish. The E.V where in northern France an Belgium where it rains almost every day.
Blue skies David,
Dan-San

[allanflowers]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

Lady and Gentlemen:
In the photos I have, when the wing is at acute angles the surface isflat without sheen. Look at the photos of the fok.E.V in the FOKKER D.VIII DATAFILE, 25 by Peter Grosz. Look at the all the rear view phots, pages, 3, 5, 6, 9, 1012, 13,14 of Udet, 23, 24, 26 and 27 all in bright sunlight. Not one of these photos show any glossy reflection. The plywood surface of the wing is finished flat. In very acute angle onthe lower surface you can see a reflection of the white in the fuselage cross.
The wing is finished with matt lacquer as required by the BLV.
Blue skies to all,
Dan-San

Sorry Dan-San, but my review of the old photos shows almost ALL of the wings to be at least semi-gloss. It is SO OBVIOUS. (Pages 2,4,6,7,8,9,11,13,14,16,21,22,23,24,25)
Of course, when sun light floods a top surface, with any finish, the gloss is not evident because the surface texture is lighted and overpowers the gloss.

The photographic evidence is overwhelming to anyone with eyes.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Allan:
Don't tell me, tell Idflieg and Fokker. I do not see any evidence of sheen, least-wise gloss in any single photo. Look at surfaces that are angled to the sun, loke the cutout above the cockpit. If it was gloss tere would be a white line of reflected light.
Blue skies Allan,
Dan-San
P.S.This makes the 8000th posting on the Aerodrome Forum.

[allanflowers]

I rest my case.
These photos show GLOSS finish, without doubt.
I guess your copy of the book must have really bad quality printing