Nieuport 10/11 Perimeter tape color ad nauseum

[Raoul Lubliner]

Hello all,

I have been reviewing and thinking about many Orthochromatic B&W's of early Nieuports, particularly CDL/ecru Nieuport 10's and 11's. And I have read much by many on this subject.

"Froggy" was most kind in forwarding a privately held April 1916 Autochrome of Nie 11 No.940 in what is obviously an indisputably triple-hued camouflage: two "browns" and one shade of "green." After much color-finessing in Photoshop, (based on the pilot's flesh tones, the grass and sky) the restored image's colors are fresh, appear most accurate and are indeed, quite vibrant. This was in the era immediately prior to the addition of flaked aluminum to the basic earth tones. I have on hand some forty odd year old Grumbacher dry color pigments in glass jars. The Olive green, Burnt Umber and Raw Sienna dry pigments appear to be absolutely dead on to this restored color photo's three color camouflage hues.

Also, the image rather clearly indicates the "V" strut tapes were in a very dark neutral gray, almost, but not quite black. Yet, I am aware that there have been reports to still exist a section of an early Nie "V" strut bearing a shade of "blue" colored reinforcing tapes. Other Orthochromatic B&W's of additional Nie 11's and 16's indicate the "V" strut tapes were indeed significantly lighter than those on Nie 940's dark gray or black tapes. Often, this shade almost matching the medium to dark-ish appearing amber varnished spruce struts themselves. This as the orange/amber of the varnish on the struts having shifted the Orthochromatic film to appear much darker than would be seen had a Panchromatic or a color film been used.

Further and most interestingly, the flying surface perimeter tapes on this original color photo of Nie 940, were a medium gray with a hint of a bluish-purple tinge, dead on matching the color used on the (known to have been) "Ripolin" painted cabane and landing gear struts.

I have also read that these steel fuselage tubes were to have been noticed by many pilots at that time, to be of the same color as the French "Adrian" helmets. My own personal observation on Sept 11, 2001 at the Musee De L'Aire et Space's Nie 11 current cabane/landing gear color agrees with this opinion, (for whatever that is worth.) However, this does not match the airframe perimeter "tape" (paint actually) as it is now displayed. Which is curious, as in photos of this A/C at the Museum back in the 1950's, there were no perimeter outlines at all. Docent Sylvie personally related to me there was no dependable information at the Museum on said subject.

Other research on the Adrian Helmet colors has, for me, yielded two basic shades of a bluish-gray that were noted during early 1916. The lighter closely coinciding with the Autochrome of Nie 940 cabane/perimeter color.

I understand from certain readings, that there is a consensus that on certain of N124 A/C the flying surface undersides AND perimeter tapes were colored a "medium blue." In addition, the multiple sourced reference to a "Horizon Blue" (same or a similar shade as the Adrian Helmet I wonder?) is oft times cited.


DOES ANYONE HAVE, OR KNOW OF A CONTEMPORARY COLOR PHOTO OF THIS "V" STRUT WITH SAID BLUE TAPES?


One period 1915, early-1916 reference to Guynemer's LeRhone 9J powered, headrest equipped Nie 10 states this aeroplane was outlined in "dark blue tapes." Orthochromatic images show this tape to appear the same as on most CDL/ecru 10's and 11's in other photo's. I wonder if this was the darker shade of bluish-gray also used on the Adrian helmets?

Let's too not forget the French Army's uniform fabric color(s) was (were) a close match to the helmet. I have seen in many Autorcrhomes a range of light bluish gray, medium blue/gray to dark blue employed on these uniforms.

Does it not stand to reason that the earliest of Nieuports were color-trimmed to meet with Army official's opinoins/taste in terms of color scheme? HENCE the apparent use of the same Ripolin color(s) used on the cabane/landing gear struts as used on the Adrian helmets, and therefore the airframe perimeter tape color(s)?

I say this as so many present day Nieuport models have these early A/C perimeter colors in the following, for CDL/ecur A/C; a brown, olive green or dark gray/black all perimeters, or in the case of camouflaged A/C, flying surface perimeters in either a bright to medium blue or ecru. In view of this Autochrome of Nie 940, especially the case of the camouflaged scheme, none of those seem or "feel" correct to me.

CONCLUSION: I realize this goes against current thinking BUT I am of the opinion that most CDL/ecru A/C were perimeter taped in a dark bluish-gray close to if not matching the darker Adrian helmet gray, while the next produced, early camouflaged A/C, had the flying surfaces perimeter taped-out in the lighter blue-gray as also found on the Adrian helmets.

If that "V" strut with "Horizon Blue" tapes could be made available to be viewed, there would be additional evidence to further muddle, confuse and delight the obsessive compulsives amongst us.


Season's Greetings,
Thank you.

Raoul

[Raoul Lubliner]

Hello,

I am a bit perplexed at there being no response whatsoever to my last dull and boring monologue.

Okay, so I now have a "full library" on the latest on Nieuport color schemes. My last Email post here remains essentially intact as far as I can discern.

As for "Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette;" A claim therein is made as to some "breakthrough" in comprehension of N 124's color schemes. I cannot find this. Perhaps I'm dumb, it could be my Ex was right after all! Someone please tell me (where to go if you'd like, she did.)

WHAT is it that I am missing? An anonymous member here and very fine fellow at that, named for an amphibian, sent me an Autochrome image copy of a certain N940 and it's pilot. The aforementioned book professes and this stated on an absolute scale, that four camouflage colors without question, are to be found in this Autochrome image.

After many hours of fine tuning and tweeking the knobs of photoshop, (yielding a most pleasing image it must be stated) I am still only able to detect but three distinct shades. A dark dull brown on the rear of the fuse, a light dull olive towards the mid section, a repeat of the dark brown ahead of this and a medium but more vibrant red/brown "mahogony" or raw sienna/umber shade towards the nose.

So, where is Victor Chapman's mentioned dark green of his described four colors? Color vision of males is long known to be specious. Color itself has been oft described as "fugitive." (Most apt!)

The title "Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF Service" features the best B&W halftone reproduction of images of Nie 11's and 16's I've yet seen. On page 12, camouflaged RNAS Nieuport 11 #3993 seems to indicate but three colors with perhaps a light mist overspray of the lightest of shades (the olive green) in a small swatch just below the cockpit. Could this somehwat transparent overspray on the darker brown be the "darker green" Victor Chapman was referring to?

Pages 12-13 of "Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette" Lawrence Rumsey's #1286/1290 clearly shows (proves) that era's film's difficulty in rendering the camouflage colors in gray shades with accuracy. Unless two differing aircraft were photographed, both identically marked, with identically replaced port lower wings and both elevators (meaning a ZERO probability of this!) do note the differing camouflage patterns between these two images of that appearing under the (presumably) same port side letters "RUM." In other words, aside from N940 in color, good luck!

Further, I am still very perplexed that despite the existence of this Autochrome of Jean Chaput and mount, the profiles in that and other publications in no uncertain terms show the cabane and landing gear struts and flying surface perimeter tapes as a "teal" green. The Invaluable N940 Autochrome indicates (as opposed to "shows" which according to the dictionary means "proves") those details to be a purplish, bluish gray. Now this very nicely corresponds to the more than once pilot described cabane strut color as matching that of the French soldier's Adrian Helmet color. No "Horizion Blue" here. Only a utilitarian cold blue/gray.

I've been made aware of no photographic evidence, none that I am able to find at all of an surviving "V" strut with reinforcing tapes in a "Horizon Blue" color. For that matter, all this while the "V" strut reinforcing tapes in the N940 Autochrome image appear (as opposed to "proves") to be in the same shade of darker brown as on the wheel covers and fuselage rear.

In summation what I do wish to convey is this: Primary research, that of first hand evidence is infinitely more reliable than secondary research (what someone else has concluded.) The N940 Autochrome is it. All else is specious hearsay. Want an example? Just check the accuracy of those Nie 11 drawings. Two things, COUNT the ribs on the top wing of a fabric stripped Nieuport 16 (mis-captioned as a 17, these things happen in every book ever published, I myself am guilty!) on page 164 of the "Nieuports in RNAS etc," and drawings of Nie 11/16 found in other books I will not mention. Again. Yes, I am attempting to be whimsical. Then compare all the drawings you may find regarding the lower wing span of these machines against actual head-on photos, including the preserved Musee De L'Aire example. "Oops," is all I can derive from those exercises!

So, with that in concrete, I wish to now contradict my own prior statement of primary/secondary research, and one that really should be either corroborated or challenged:

The perimeter stripe on the CDL/Ecru/Cream Colored Nieuport 11's, XIB's WHATEVER:

THIS PERIMETER TAPE OR PAINT WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT BLACK, ABSOLUTELY NOT BROWN AND ABSOULTELY NOT OLIVE!

It is SHOWN to be (yes proven!) by a single image in "Nieuport Flyers...." as the same purplish blue/gray of the N940 Autochrome by a single seemingly overlooked for this matter, image: on page 12, image #26 of Whiskey blinding Lawrence Dana Rumsey Jr. standing by his ship. At the pivot of the CDL/Ecru "cream" elevator to the camouflaged horizontal stabilizer, the perimeter color of both surfaces is indisputably, the same color, a PURPLISH, BLUISH GRAY! That same perimeter "tape," cabane strut color found on the Autochrome of Jean Chaput and Nieuport 11, SFA #940!

Froggy, Greg W. anybody out there, please, what about this?

Thanks!
Raoul

[Rowan Broadbent]

Well I've read both your posts and you certainly sound convinced - even convincing!

All I can offer as a comment and to support your deductions, is that worst of all things in these cases - an opinion.

The French Military seemed to have that mind set common to their British and German counterparts: that those things owned by the army should be clearly identified as such. Ergo all things pertaining to the British army were painted or in the case of uniforms, dyed, khaki (and at the extreme risk of de-canning another load of old worms) that included (from 1916 onwards) their aeroplanes! The German Army decreed that feld grau should be their distinctive shade and I have no doubt at all that the French felt the same about bleu d'horizon!

Hardly evidence, I know.....

[Raoul Lubliner]

Hi Rowan,

Thank you very much for responding and your quite interesting comment.

What I am simply asking is this:

Does anyone know if it is discernible on the original Autochrome of N940 that the area immediately behind Jean Chaput is a dark olive green OR is it also the same dark brown as at the fuselage rear?

I am working from a forth or fifth generation image down from the original. It is almost impossible for me to know this with any certainty (3 vs. 4 color camouflage) with what I've available.

Will someone with access to the original Autochrome please comment?

Thank you.

[gilles]

Hello

Nieuport #940 autochrome is not privately held, it belongs to the city of Lyons public library and the copyright owner is unknown. At least that what's written in "René Dorme et Joseph Guiguet The air war of two aces", wich published this picture.
This a quality book and the picture is printed quite large so I suppose that the (average) quality is very close to the original autochrome. In my opinion and eyes there are only three colors.
I would be interested to see your doctored version of #940.

For what it's worth there is another Nieuport autochrome (a N10 in a belgian school) and it seems there are also 3 colors, but the 'olive drab' appears distinctly dark green.


For the perimeter tape you convinced me. From now I'll see them blue grey

Gilles

[Greybeard]

Raoul,

perhaps you missed this previous post of mine:

Early Nieuports interplane struts tape bindings colour

I would be very pleased to see the color photo of N940, both in genuine and in your elaborated version, if possible.

Thank you very much,
GB

[Tomasz]

Raoul,

Alan Toelle has written much about early Nieuport camouflages in recent Over the Front issue (Volume 24, Issue 4). We can expect more findings to be published soon. As regards early Nieuport camouflage one can be sure about four color pattern (dark olive green is most probably in front of light green on Chaput's Ni.16) but existence of three or two color patterns is still unconfirmed. Many b/w photos do not show more than two shades but obviously it can be misleading. However Farre saw only red brown and light green while painting his famous Nieuport aquarel.
As regards wing and tail edges on Chaput's Ni.16 I too see nothing else than blue gray.

Tomasz

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Raoul:
I sure would like to see that photo posted, if it can be arranged with your friend.
Sometimes I feel like Rip van Winkle, who just woke up from a very long sleep, who has found that old ideas have been rediscovered. First Alan's article in Over the Front. Then your report today. I asked myself, why not? This could of camouflage could be the lead to the Acellos five color camouflage system, it makes sense. What we need is the actual colors. Well, to me, your tweaking arrived at Umber, burnt sienna and olive green. I just remembered a statement that Jean Lagorgette made in regard to German terrain camouflage, "...just like the Nieuport green and brown." I hope you post the photo of Nieuport 940, I sure would like to see it.
In the Methuen Handbook of Colour, Horizon blue: 24A3, is defined as, "The color of the sky viewed at 5 degrees above the horizon.(1905)"
Raoul, you have cracked door a little further open! Next the patterns!
Blue skies Raoul,
Dan-San

[Raoul Lubliner]

Hi Dan,

Thank you for the compliments, not certain I deserve any just yet. That from the meister color blender no less!

I do not think I am permitted to post what is not mine to post however. It simply is a high resolution scan of the Autochrome of Jean Chaput's N 940 from the book on Rene Dorme. That and it has had the green component of the color (RGB) reduced and a slight increase in the blue and red, with a bit of brightness and contrast manipulation thrown in. Almost like on an old color T.V. except the three color components have been individually manipulated. But it does reveal certain things not readily apparent (at least to me.) I haven't as yet read Alan Toelle's latest so please excuse any errors on my part.

I do not see any more than three colors: A dull dark brown (not dissimilar to the 5 color Acelos System you have mentioned) a medium light olive (a bit lighter than what I remember offhand of the actual Nie 28 skin we have at the San Diego Aerospace Museum,) and that beautiful burnt sienna, an almost vibrant red/brown.

More of interest to me (so far that is) is the cabane/landing gear strut color which here is unquestionably identical to the flying surfaces perimeter color.

From observation of B&W close-ups of fuselages, I am of the opinion the perimeter color may have actually been painted on as opposed to a tape that was doped and then varnished. I could be wrong, but I could find those shots where this slightly darker color (than Ecru) wandered onto and then off again of the clearly obvious pre pinking shears longeron tapes thus indicating paint. Further, this color appears a match for the early (1915 - 1916) Adrian Helmet purplish-tinged gray. This as mentioned by more than one period pilot.

I say this only because of corroboration with another Autochrome image, that of a Belgian Nie 10 in camouflage. These were not delivered in camouflage to my understanding, so it would appear to be a field or depot type job. I thought this as the base color in this image is a deep olive green and not the dull dark brown of N 940, with what appears an identical raw sienna and close to if not spot on light olive (to N 940) both very lightly almost transparently misted over this saturated deep base color. However, the omnipresent purple-tinged medium to light gray perimeter striping is most clearly present on all flying surfaces including the still in Ecru, left aileron. This perimeter color does indeed match that found on the N 940 Autochrome image.

So for me it is finally apparent, IT is not black (too dark,) not brown (Orthochromatic B&W image spectrum analysis more or less ruled that out for me some time ago) not olive (maybe for Macchi-Nieuports?) and I have to say, apparently not Horizon Blue for these perimeter stripes. But a purple-tinged medium to light gray. As to "V" strut reinforcing tapes, well.......

That's about it for the moment.

Regards,

Raoul

[Cliff]

Message #16

Eduard Nieuport 16 weekend