Sopwith Camel's In Italy

Amphalon · 24 December 2009, 01:54 AM

I'm about to start making a model of a Sopwith Camel and wanted to give it the markings which would have been used in Italy around 1918 (specifically 66 Squadron). Can anyone tell me where I should look or give me any information?

My father's god-father (K B Montgomery) was with the squadron then and it's going to be displayed with his medals.

Thanks for your help.

Tom

Raineranton · 24 December 2009, 02:32 AM

Hello Tom,

there are a view good pictures of Italian Camels of 28, 45 and 66 sqaudron in Sopwith Camel - King of Combat by Chaz Bowyer.

Regards

Rainer

'14-'18aviationcollector · 24 December 2009, 03:05 AM

Hi Tom,

I have quite a few 66 Squadron photographs. I was not able to find any photographs which are named KB Montgomery, but there could be some photographs with him in them. I certainly have a few photographs of 66 Squadron Camels. Was he an Officer?

Regards and all the very best of wishes for Christmas,

David.

Amphalon · 24 December 2009, 05:23 AM

Thanks, I'll try to get hold of the book.

David, it'd be fascinating to see the photographs of 66 Squadron in Italy, are any of them available online? Mr Montgomery ended up as a captain, he was awarded the MC and the Croce di Guerra.

Thanks again,

Tom

'14-'18aviationcollector · 25 December 2009, 02:12 PM

Hi Tom,

As far as I know these particular photographs are not available online. They are from a large private collection I bought from one of the founding members (or at least one of the original contributors) of Cross and Cockade, and which I have been adding to over the last 10 years or so. I have always intended to publish these photographs, but it is a lot of work to do so, and will not happen in a hurry. In the meantime I am very happy to provide copies to any author who would like to use them as illustration for their work, or for people like yourself. As you can imagine, I don't want them to be too widely distributed and to not get credit for them (I also ask authors to credit Gerald Muir, who compiled them) but equally I don't want them to just sit at home not being used or seen by anyone else.

Thanks for the information about Mr Montgomery. As a decorated Captain - a great achievement - surely he must have been a pilot. Many of the photographs in the collection are named, but many are not unfortunately. I have some photographs of 66 Squadron Camels and Officers, but I was not able to find his name in any of them unfortunately. I have some other documents compiled by Gerald Muir, which I bought with the photograph albums. Interestingly, I have found a reference to a Lt CCS Montgomery, which had me confused, but further down on the same page is a reference to Capt KB Montgomery. On 12-1-18 at 12.35 he shot an Albatros D.V down (destroyed) S.E. of Fozasqo-s Seren (not sure what that means) in Camel B4628. There is a column with the number 11 in it next to his name, so presumably he had 11 victories. The column is not named, and the figure in the same column for Capt W.G. Barker for example progresses from 28 on 8-5-18 to 42 on 13-7-18, so it is obvious that it is a running tally of the number of victories scored. I only met Gerald twice, and tried to get as much information from him as I could before it was too late, but unfortunately most of his knowledge went with him. I have some conversations on tape, but just to record what he knew about his photograph collection, and some of the documents he compiled would have taken a long time. Although he was not frail, he was in his 90's and tired easily, so the arrangement was that I would come back at a later time to discuss more issues, but of course this did not ever happen.

Regards,

David.

'14-'18aviationcollector · 25 December 2009, 02:36 PM

Hi Tom,

I just had a look through my 66 Squadron Sopwith Camel photographs. I don't think I have any of B4628, but many of the 66 Squadron serial numbers are extremely difficult to see. The reason for this is that when 66 Squadron used the white bar rearward of the fuselage roundel, the serial number was often painted onto the white bar, and is small and difficult to read. At the time when the white ball / circle was used, the serial numbers appear to have been much more standard. I am sure I have a book called "Sopwith Scout" which I think was written by Sir Gordon Taylor. I am just going from memory, so I hope I have not got any of the details wrong. I am sure it is about 66 Squadron Sopwith Pups, so there could be some 66 Squadron Sopwith Camel photographs in the book too. Unfortunately I can't find it right now, but I will let you know if I can find it, and if it has any photographs of B4628 in it.

Regards,

David.

Amphalon · 28 December 2009, 02:28 AM

David,

Thanks for taking the time to look through the pictures.

From the information on this site it appears that Kenneth flew Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutters and Camels. The known serial numbers of the aircraft he used are A1053, B3811, B3929 and B4628. If you're interested I could send you a copy of the diary he kept when he was shot down and taken prisoner.

I've located a copy of Chaz Bowyer's King of Combat, hopefully there will be some photos in that.

Any photos of the Squadron in Italy would be great, I'd be very happy to pay your costs for digitising them and will, of course, not distribute them further.

Thank you again for your help.

Tom

TomVrille · 31 December 2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amphalon

I'm about to start making a model of a Sopwith Camel and wanted to give it the markings which would have been used in Italy around 1918 (specifically 66 Squadron). ...My father's god-father (K B Montgomery) was with the squadron then and it's going to be displayed with his medals. ....Tom

Hi Tom...
I have not had time to scour my references looking for a photo, but I have collected a bit of data on the many Camels flown by K.B.Montgomery. From The Camel File, it appears that K.B.Montgomery flew seven different Camels during the war, with serials B2329, B2363, B2376, B2393, B3871, B3929, and B4628. Montgomery flew the first six aircraft while a 2/Lt in 45 Squadron. He had the misfortune to crash on landing on B2329, but was not injured. The aircraft was subsequently repaired, and delivered to 66 Squadron. He again escaped injury when B2363 was damaged by antiaircraft fire on an offensive patrol. His most prolific scoring was apparently achieved with B3929, with three individual victories and one shared.

The aircraft most of interest to you is probably B4628. First mention of this aircraft in 66 Squadron was on 1 January 1918, and now 1/Lt Montogomery shared a victory over an Albatros DV on 12 January 1918. The final flight of Capt K.B.Montgomery, MC, was on 22 February 1918, when he was shot down by ground fire, wounded, and taken POW flying B4628.

Hope this information is helpful.

R Gannon · 1 January 2010, 03:40 PM

Tom

On 15 Nov 17 whilst still with 45 Sqn, Lt KB Montgomery shot down and killed the minor German ace - Ltn R. Runge (8 vics) of Jasta 18. This was his 11th victory.

And a Cheshire boy too!!!!

Cheers Russ

R Gannon · 3 January 2010, 04:14 PM

Tom

A little extra re your plans to build a 66 Sqn Camel in Italy.

In addition to the noted 'Kings of Combat' there is quite a good history of 66 Sqn in the old Cross & Cockade GB Vol 6 #1 with additional photo's of 66 Sqn's Camels in Italy. Now 'Kings' shows Camel's marked E, F & P (also S much later in Oct 18) whilst C&C article has photo's of Camel's marked J, K & T. 'Kings' also provides 66 Sqn Camel serial No data noting Camels marked H, L, T & O.

The point being that in early 18 66 Sqn were clearly using Camel's marked with the letter system of A to K. Which in turn points that flight leaders were marked A (A flight), G (B Flight) & M (C Flight) I do not know which flight KB Montgomery led but I would suspect it is in the diary you posses.

Cheers Russ