Henry John Burden's C'1096- "3" or "V"?

alex_revell · 20 May 2010, 02:49 AM

I don't know of Dr Merrill, or his work, so I can't comment on his statements regarding C1096.

Air Britain publication SE5 File states. 'C1096 (Viper) England to Rec park 20.3.18; 2A1 25.3.18; 56 Sqdn ('2': 'V') 28.3.18.' The entry then goes on to list all the victories scored in C1096 by Burden, who was the only pilot in 56 Sqdn to fly it. I don't know what the '2' is referring to but possibly a marking at the depot before it was issued to 56 Sqdn on the 28th. Although it's not very likely that it would have been so numbered (with a letter or number) before it was issued to a squadron, which would have then marked it with the letter or number of whatever Flight or pilot it was assigned to. What is clear is that it was always a Viper engined machine.

RAGIII · 20 May 2010, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_revell

I don't know of Dr Merrill, or his work, so I can't comment on his statements regarding C1096.

Air Britain publication SE5 File states. 'C1096 (Viper) England to Rec park 20.3.18; 2A1 25.3.18; 56 Sqdn ('2': 'V') 28.3.18.' The entry then goes on to list all the victories scored in C1096 by Burden, who was the only pilot in 56 Sqdn to fly it. I don't know what the '2' is referring to but possibly a marking at the depot before it was issued to 56 Sqdn on the 28th. Although it's not very likely that it would have been so numbered (with a letter or number) before it was issued to a squadron, which would have then marked it with the letter or number of whatever Flight or pilot it was assigned to. What is clear is that it was always a Viper engined machine.

It looks as though your research,as always, is thourough on this aircraft. I will
have to guess that Dr. Merrill in this case was incorrect. Perhaps he based his thoughts on the aforementioned photo in the Data File special?
RAGIII
PS: I used the Profile in

High in the Empty Blue, Burdens description, and Dr. Merrills excellent decals when building my 1/48th kit. The one thing I have never been certain of until now was the Viper Engine. Thanks for the info!

Brez · 20 May 2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAGIII

It looks as though your research,as always, is thourough on this aircraft. I will
have to guess that Dr. Merrill in this case was incorrect. Perhaps he based his thoughts on the aforementioned photo in the Data File special?
RAGIII
PS: I used the Profile in

High in the Empty Blue, Burdens description, and Dr. Merrills excellent decals when building my 1/48th kit. The one thing I have never been certain of until now was the Viper Engine. Thanks for the info!

Could not the '2' mentioned in ''The SE5 Filie'' ...
Air Britain publication SE5 File states. 'C1096 (Viper) England to Rec park 20.3.18; 2A1 25.3.18; 56 Sqdn ('2': 'V') 28.3.18.' The entry then goes on to list all the victories scored in C1096 by Burden, who was the only pilot in 56 Sqdn to fly it. I don't know what the '2' is referring to but possibly a marking at the depot before it was issued to 56 Sqdn on the 28th. Although it's not very likely that it would have been so numbered (with a letter or number) before it was issued to a squadron, which would have then marked it with the letter or number of whatever Flight or pilot it was assigned to. What is clear is that it was always a Viper engined machine.
...
refer to the '3' (or '2?') in the first photo? I think it's a bit early to say that Dr. Merrill's, or indeed Ray Rimmel's research is incorrect.
One thing is clear though, C1096 had a Hispano Suiza radiator if not engine (retro) fitted when the 'V' photo was taken.
Tony.

ONEALM · 20 May 2010, 11:11 AM

Looks like the Memorial Flight SE-5. Not sure how they have asscoiated the photo of #3 with Hank Burden....

restauration du SE5a

Mike

reflected · 20 May 2010, 09:59 PM

Another approach:
Was Burden always in C Flight? If yes, then "3" couldn't have been his machine, as it's clearly a "B" flight plane.

reflected · 21 May 2010, 01:06 AM

And yet another theory:
The only way "3" could have been Burden's plane is if he had been in "B" flight before being in "C", so he must have used "3" before "V".

BUT: on the picture none of the 2 machines have the "MAYBE?" personal marking, which was applied later on.

My theory: had the "maybe?" marking been applied to "3" later on, I'm sure he would have painted it on his latter "V" right away. However, it's still not present on the picture in August 1918.

Pure logic and common sense with no background sources, so I might be wrong...

alex_revell · 21 May 2010, 05:26 AM

Hello all,
Burden was posted to 56 Sqdn on 16 Feb 1918. He was posted to C Flight and flew under Fielding-Johnson, Jarvis and Mealing, all C Flt commanders or deputy commanders. Burden had his first combat on 14 March, flying under the leadership of Jarvis. There is no record that he was ever in or flew with B Flight.
According to the 56 Sqn Record book, Burden flew only two SEs while with the sqdn. First was D283, which issued to the sqdn on 17 March. It was damaged in a combat - longeron shot through - on 27 March, while being flown by Burden and returned the next day to 2ASD for repair. Burden then flew C1096 for the rest of his time with 56 Sqdn. He was promoted to C Flight commander on 15 July and served in that capacity until he was posted to HE on 1 September. It seems to me that the probable sequence of events was: D283 marked as 'Maybe'. Then, when it was returned to 2ASD for repair, Burden flew C1096, which he marked as shown in his letter home and adopted the St Christopher medal on the nose in place of 'Maybe'.
The fact that C1096 was a Viper, but has the rounded nose of the Hispano engined aircraft was because the early installations of the Viper retained the Hispano-Suiza radiator and had a similar form of cowling. It's important to remember that lots of repairs/mods were carried out at Sqdn level, which could mean variations in individual machines, probably quite different from how they arrived at the depot from the various manufacturers. For example, if an engine was changed, then according to what spares were on hand it could easily have been changed to a geared engine and a four-bladed prop fitted.
As for Vickers built B502 having the top wing roundels inboard. It's quite possible that this machine had the entire top wing replaced at one time. Who knows? There were no hard and fast rules. It was make do and mend a lot of the time, with what spares were on hand.

reflected · 21 May 2010, 05:45 AM

Alex,
Thank you very much for taking the time sharing your amazing knowledge with us!
Now that we know that Burden was in C flight during his entire service with 56 sqn there's not much left to discuss, as he clearly couldn't have flown a "B" Flight machine.

As for the roundels: that's a possible theory, it would explain everything.

Thanks again,
Greg

YavorD · 21 May 2010, 07:34 AM

According to the "The S.E.5 File" No 56 Squadron used most of the time geared Hispano-Suiza engines (1170 rpm and 1500 rpm). One of the flights, however, converted to Wolseley Viper (direct drive) machines about March / April 1918, while others continued with geared (1500 rpm) engines throughout Summer and Autumn of 1918.
Regards,
Yavor

Brez · 21 May 2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_revell

Hello all,
Burden was posted to 56 Sqdn on 16 Feb 1918. He was posted to C Flight and flew under Fielding-Johnson, Jarvis and Mealing, all C Flt commanders or deputy commanders. Burden had his first combat on 14 March, flying under the leadership of Jarvis. There is no record that he was ever in or flew with B Flight.
According to the 56 Sqn Record book, Burden flew only two SEs while with the sqdn. First was D283, which issued to the sqdn on 17 March. It was damaged in a combat - longeron shot through - on 27 March, while being flown by Burden and returned the next day to 2ASD for repair. Burden then flew C1096 for the rest of his time with 56 Sqdn. He was promoted to C Flight commander on 15 July and served in that capacity until he was posted to HE on 1 September. It seems to me that the probable sequence of events was: D283 marked as 'Maybe'. Then, when it was returned to 2ASD for repair, Burden flew C1096, which he marked as shown in his letter home and adopted the St Christopher medal on the nose in place of 'Maybe'.
The fact that C1096 was a Viper, but has the rounded nose of the Hispano engined aircraft was because the early installations of the Viper retained the Hispano-Suiza radiator and had a similar form of cowling. It's important to remember that lots of repairs/mods were carried out at Sqdn level, which could mean variations in individual machines, probably quite different from how they arrived at the depot from the various manufacturers. For example, if an engine was changed, then according to what spares were on hand it could easily have been changed to a geared engine and a four-bladed prop fitted.
As for Vickers built B502 having the top wing roundels inboard. It's quite possible that this machine had the entire top wing replaced at one time. Who knows? There were no hard and fast rules. It was make do and mend a lot of the time, with what spares were on hand.

Thank-you Alex,
For such an interesting and informative post. I was (like I guess many others) always under the impression that square cowling = Viper, rounded cowling = Hisso. Thanks again for clearing things up.
Cheers,
Tony.