Camouflage finish of the Hansa-Brandenburg W.29

[expositor]

Originally Posted by Hans

Age, storage condition, UV exposure, dope aging....

H

hans,

i asked the question in light of the fact that the unmentioned third color, the grey-violet/mauve, of your post's sample was very close to that of the sample in dan's post, in contrast to the two other colors which were noticeably different. is it possible that the blue-grey and grey-brown dyes were markedly inferior to the grey-violet regarding resistance to fading?
in any case, i just find it intriguing that two colors of your sample are so different from the corresponding two colors in dan's sample, while the third color is quite close.

cheerio,
jim

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
I have been in contact with Richard Alexander, the Project Coordinator at Wing Nut Wings and he informed me the information came from Windsock Datafile 61, Brandenburg W.12, by the late Peter M. Grosz. On page 30 bottom left column; It may be noted also that the floats were frequently coated with a thin dark coloured bitumin for salt water protection and as well ......... Photo on page 31 of Brandenburg W.12 s/n 2098 has the dark floats and struts. It was ordered in October 1917 and would have preceded any Branbenburg W.29 in production and establishes a early point in time in respect to when this bitumin coating was first applied. Hmmmm.... I wonder if they are going to do a Brandenburg W.12??? Any how this explains the dark struts and floats on both the W.12 and W.29. I presume this was accomplished at the factory. That problem is solved.
There has been much writen about the light and dark blue and violet painted and printed three colored hexagons on German Naval aircraft. That is a myth. There was never a blue violet painted or printed naval fabric. This was guessing on the part of some of our earlier researchers. Peter Grosz cleared this up when he published the SVK document, in addition German researcher Bruno Schmäling and Michael Schmeelke added to the data, with new data from theBundearchiv order "B Nr. F592, Special conditions Concerning Seaplanes, January 1916 and a supplementary order "B Nr. F5952 dated 28 March 1917. These documents carried details of painting and finishing for naval machines including the three colour hexangonal camouflage fabric, the colours of which were stated as being 'grey brown', 'grey-blue' and 'grey violet' Order F5952 directed the the printed fabric be applied: ...'to all upper surfaces: upper wing, fuselage, floats and tailplane. All side surfaces of the fuselage ,floats, rudder and tailfin, including all strutswere painted grey-blue. The under surfaces were kept in a light grey colour, excluding the wings which remained in the clear doped linen." reference: Windsock Datafile 61, Brandenburg W12, page 27.
This was followed in April 1917 with the ABB published by SVK and amended in April 1918 which I opened this thread with. There is nothing whatsoever about any other blue/violet colored printed fabric. That is the whole story.
The Naval printed three color fabric and the Luftstreitkräfte four and five color printed fabrics were printed using Indanthrene dyes made by I.G.Farben, these dyes were fast, which means they do not fade with age or sunlight or from washing. I'll research my Britanicas for more information about these dyes.
Merry Christmas to everyone,
Dan-San

[Hans]

which means they do not fade with age or sunlight or from washing

Compared to natural dyes, this is ok, as these dyes are chemical stable. But this does not mean that they will last forever. Your jeans are dyed with this sort of artificial indigo and we all know whats happen with them over the years... ;-)

My own small snippets of lozenge fabric where stored completey dark and dry for all the years and the colors are fresh as new, also larger piece which a friend of mine is holding is also deep and colorful as new.

The problem about the Berlin Marine sample is for me at the moment that I have no further details. I don't know if it is/was doped and from which piece from the Halberstadt it came. B/W-prints of the Halberstadt parts still covered in this fabric are showing a somewhat pale and contrast-less condition of this fabric.

And be careful, this picture is from less than mediocre quality, don't take the hues shown for the absolute and only truth.

H

[Sreiko]

My own small snippets of lozenge fabric where stored completey dark and dry for all the years and the colors are fresh as new, also larger piece which a friend of mine is holding is also deep and colorful as new.

Good point- did all those who have make pattern for decals (or anything else), have something like that in their files?

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Sreiko:
Peter Grosz found the ABB and bought it into the light of day. I don't think the early researchers had this information, they had made an estimate of what they thought it might be, and that is what lead to the light and dark blue and violet hexagon pattern. I would say a lot of guesstamating went on before documents came to light. Fortunately for us, Peter had the financial means and time to search for these documents, and the generousity to share them with us. Otherwise we would still be using the wrong information. There are people who have information, that do not share it with the public. Thank God for people like Peter M. Grosz.
There is one thing for sure, you can't take it with you!.
Merry Christmas Sreiko,
Dan-San

[Sreiko]

Merry Christmas to you Dan San
Sharing of info is good thing and proper use is much better. So where to get hi resolution scan of this fabric? I have some images, scan of the original blueprint... fabric scan would make my W.29 files somehow complete (in technical aspect)

Cheers

BTW. Our Christmas is in January

[Hans]

I was a little bit confused about the Teer-Anstrich of Floats and Struts. I never fully understood this advice, mainly because I mixed up those IG-Farben pigments which are all of a tar basis. I never hold a complete sample of the Bauvorschriften in deutsch, but only parts of it and of course what is published in the Datafile. When I made 1/72 scale Hexagon decals early in the 1980's, I had all info to make it in the pink-grey-brown sceme, but did not understand the Teer-Anstrich. But yesterday my mind worked: Tar-linseed oil-mixtures, cooked and cleared are an age old method of protecting wood from salt water. This mixture can be traced up until early iron age. It's a translucent, dark glaze, smelly like a smoker's lung. It's a deep umbra shade, wood parts which are not covered too thick shows a deep red-brown, dark orange. I see, I have to look for the complete text - but in deutsch.

H

[Sreiko]

This mixture can be traced up until early iron age. It's a translucent, dark glaze, smelly like a smoker's lung. It's a deep umbra shade, wood parts which are not covered too thick shows a deep red-brown, dark orange. I see, I have to look for the complete text - but in deutsch.

Still in use today in Nordic countries for wood protection. So- who give dark grey color simply did not use any source as proof for this. This topic become more interesting

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Hans:
I would most appreciate you color input on the teer wood coating. dark red brown??? When questions are raised some times a solution is found. please report back your fndings.
Merry Christmas Jack,
Dan-San

[Hans]

Dan-San, I am not 100% sure at the moment, but the suspicion is strong. I am waiting for the original text and I hope I can say more if linsees oil/resin plus tar was used or a more modern component for oil/resin. The photo below shows oak wood, heavily covered with oil/resin/tar mixture, applied hot. Weathering is evident as the thick mixture is starting to crack. Object is a replica viking boat from the Roskilde Viking ship museum, Danmark.