Pistachio Fokker E.V/D.VIII build

Bradypdion · 13 August 2006, 03:42 PM

Hi,
this is my first post to this forum so please forgive me if I've missed some obvious discussions on this subject!

I've scratch built a pistachio "scale" flying (hopefully...) rubber powered Fokker E.V/D.VIII. The basis for my model have been several general arrangement drawings, but the most important source has been the attached drawing by Björn Karlström. According to him, it portrays a D.VIII belonging to Udet, but I have searched the few sources I have available and this site quite extensively (I think...) and I haven't been able to find a reference to either this type of very symmetrical lozenge or to any D.VIII (or E.V) flown by Udet. Did any of them exist? Well, I know Udet existed, but this aircraft

Barring that, can anyone please suggest another interesting German paint scheme, and perhaps also post an reasonably accurate image of an aircraft that really did exist?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Johan

StephenLawson · 13 August 2006, 03:52 PM

Greetings and welcome to the "Drome."

Bradypdion · 13 August 2006, 03:58 PM

Here's a picture of the fuselage and empennage in the early stages. I was a bit lazy and used 1 mm sq balsa for longerongs, but they are now sanded to triangular section to save some weight. W.S. is 20 cm (8 inches).
I've made one set of wings using 0,3 mm balsa sheet and the other is going to be stick and tissue. I want to get that solid look of the plywood covered wing, but depending on the weight penalty of using a sheet wing, I might have to settle for the second alternative. Hopefully I'll be able to print the colour and markings directly on the sheet wing to save even a bit more weight.
Cheers,
Johan

Gregvan · 13 August 2006, 04:41 PM

Hello Johan,

May I also extend my greetings and welcome.

I'm afraid the Björn Karlstrom drawings you cite may have been OK 50 years ago or so, but now they're sadly outdated. For when they were done, they're....all right, given the information he had to work with. No real Fokker E.V/D.VIII ever featured such regular, symmetrical lozenge fabric - nor did any German a/c. These drawings may have been the basis for the old 1/48 Aurora Fokker D.VIII box art and color scheme (from the late 1950's), or else similar drawings by Walter Musciano were - so you know they're old.

Yes, Udet did fly a Fokker parasol, but only after the war. He flew a Fokker D.VIII against

Robert von Greim in mock combat/airshows in Bavaria; Greim generally flew a Fokker D.VII but he also had a Rumpler D.I. The blue tail in Karlstrom's drawing is another error, based on the mistaken belief that during the war Udet led a squadron called the "Bavarian Blue Tails". There are photos of Udet in the cockpit of D.VIII 238/18, and it bears four-color lozenge fabric only on the fuselage.

The wings of the E.V/D.VIII were not covered with lozenge fabric, but you can finds loads and loads of info in the archives of this forum on debate about what paint/stain scheme they actually did display!!

I will let others point you to authentic color profiles for Fokker E.V paint schemes, both German wartime schemes and post-war versions. There are some fairly attractive color schemes adopted by Jasta 6, and also by the Marine (Navy) Feld Jagdstaffeln; also post-war Polish schemes are quite nice. This popular aircraft has been covered a lot on this forum, and you should be able to find something to your liking.

Greg VanWyngarden

Bradypdion · 15 August 2006, 04:56 PM

Thanks Greg and Stephen for the welcome and the information!
There's so a wealth of knowledge collected on this forum and I have such a slow modem connection, so I will probably have to spend a large chunk of my remaining lifetime just trying to get through the more interesting parts

The subject of lozenges seems to be a thoroughly debated issue, and my question is probably of the most basic kind, but I would appreciate input on the three lozenges attached.
The first two are slightly modified versions of the patterns dowloadable from http://aerodromerc.com/, and the third originates from a Karlström drawing in American Aircraft Modeler in 1974. Which of the patterns are more correct and what about the colours? It seems to me that the "upper" Aerodrome pattern should be a "lower" pattern (colour intensity et c)?
I done my best to understand the technicalities of lozenge patterns found on this forum and I'm very impressed by the effort put into the research, but since my knowledge on the subject is so slight, I need some kind of "Lozenge for Dummies"... Sorry

Cheers,
Johan

Roundel · 25 August 2006, 08:13 PM

My school's library subscribed to both Model Airplane News and American Aircraft Modeler and gave away back issues every few months as it cleared out space. I always chose AAM in part because of the Karlström drawings. Besides, William Winter had a way with words in his editorials.

Did Merriam C. Cooper fly a D.VIII during his tour with the Poles?

Anyway, looks like a fine model is being born here. Keep up the good work Johan and don't take the Off Topic section too seriously.

allanflowers · 27 August 2006, 09:58 AM

There are several nice Jasta 6 schemes for E.Vs. Some are shown on my old website http://www.checkerboardair.com/cbweb1002.htm and one is pictured below. They are fairly accurate although I have done some updating of the Kurt Blumener scheme with the diamond shape, to improve the lozenge colors. I have or can make jpg files for all of these for printing on tissue.
Allan

Bradypdion · 30 August 2006, 02:34 AM

Allan and Roundel,
thanks for the comments and interest shown

Karlström's drawings aren't always as accurate as one would hope, but very often they are the best available, and he was always willing to modify his drawings when new data was made available. His passing is a great loss to all aircraft fanciers and those who appreciate really good drawings.

To tell the truth, I lost my spirit a bit when I fell into the lozenge/wing pattern bog. When you've already put a lot of effort into a model, accuracy is rather important to me, because I like to feel I'm "recreating" a bit of history. In this case, the discussions on the camouflage and markings has been a true learning experience and very interesting, but I feel that I have to digest this new found knowledge a bit... I'll soon get back to the E.V, but I started a Phönix D.III for a cook-up on www.smallflyingarts.com a couple of days ago, so I'll finish that one while I decide about the E.V colours.
Cheers,
Johan

snipe · 30 August 2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradypdion

... I haven't been able to find a reference to either this type of very symmetrical lozenge ...

The symmetry seems a little strange...

You might like to look at the reprint of Dan San Abbott's article from WWI Aero #129 on the German Army Air Force Camouflage

There is also an article by H.D. Hastings in Cross and Cockade Volume 2, Number 3 (Autumn 1961) regarding printed lozenge fabrics. I have access to this issue, pm me if you want particulars.

Bradypdion · 6 September 2006, 01:59 PM

So, now I think I'm back on the track, thanks to help received here at the forum!
Made a few tests the wing camouflage that is (hopefully...) going to get printed directly on the sheet wing. Doesn't look as good as Allan's image attached above, still learning... The colours are probably wrong so I'll look into the "wing stripe discussion" again.
Top and bottom will be printed in two separate runs on the same sheet, the lower pattern being a mirror image of the top so that the stripes match on leading and trailing edges. That makes the slant direction wrong on the bottom, but that's the only way to cater for uneven widths of the striping. Maybe I got that part wrong too... Printing seems to work but there's a possibility of alignment error that I'll try to fix by making the bottom print slightly over large. Also my printer isn't too happy to accept sheet balsa instead of paper, but with a bit of nudging it sometimes works.

Cheers,
Johan