Basic Flight Sim Equipment?

[Tom_Cervo]

"even the old Microprose Knights of the Sky WW1 sim blows it out of the water as far as campaign depth goes"

Knights of the Sky! Gosh, but you're an old sweat!

Any opinion on the most workable update/add-on for Red Baron 3D?

[Chock]

I had Red Baron and Red Baron 2, but I could never get the 3D version to download, so never having tried it (or more correctly, having tried it and never got to using it) I really wouldn't know to be honest.

Al

[sightreader]

Originally Posted by Chock

even the old Microprose Knights of the Sky WW1 sim blows it out of the water as far as campaign depth goes

Well, I would think that most campaign stuff is as easy to add to a sim as changing the menu system. Very little plot development interferes with the real time stuff, such as the flight, physics and network code: most "story" development occurs between dogfights and not in real time at all. Thus, they still have the freedom to develop a campaign however they choose without having to rewrite most of the tough stuff. I think it is likely that they made a deliberate choice to push off campaign development as an add-on, depending on how well the sim sells.

Based on the documentation with which their mission editor was released, I would also guess that it's no easy thing for them to get English speaking talent to help develop the dialogue for campaigns. Perhaps they wished to hold off on the "localisation" investment until they were sure there was enough of an audience for it.

[Tom_Cervo]

I agree with Chock's comments about First Eagles. It's certainly the easiest starter sim available, and most CPU friendly. The updated (Gold) version gives you six of the best fighters of the war.
The updates are nearly all free and downloadable from here:

First Eagles by Thirdwire -> Downloads

The early war makeovers are there too. Don't be in too big a hurry to see what war was like in an E.III. TK was one of the guiding lights of European Air War. Now more than a decade old, it's still being played and actively modded. I think he knew that something that started with the planes of 1915 wouldn't last very long except among the hardcore, so he started with the SE 5, Spad and D.VII, then added the Camel, the D.V and the Triplane--top inlines and top rotaries, all with two guns.

Although I've always used a joystick with a twist rudder--currently a Logotech extreme 3D pro--some swear by the foot pedals.

It was Wings of Glory that made me go to a joystick with a rudder and throttle. It combined a story-scripted campaign with a very demanding regular and hard flight model. (The Youtube footage was clearly done with Easy flight model and VW-sized bullets.) The project manager of that sim was Warren Spector, one of the most highly regarded in the industry, who never forgets that he's making a game as well as well as sim. It had a ton of "personality"; it was like walking into "Dawn Patrol".

I'm afraid that a lot of later sims have all the personality of an autoexec.bat file--all sim, no immersion.

[Chock]

Absolutely agree. I actually posted all my suggestions on the RoF forum, although whether they take any of them on board is another matter.

Details such as tracking squadron members' progress and their skills is mere database stuff that is nothing more than a spreadsheet and a screen to show how people in your squadron are doing. But as simple as that is, it definitely makes a sim more 'personal', since the major aspect of flying in a squadron in wartime is coping with the losses, and not just how many planes you have shot down. I think that aspect is sorely missing from RoF.

Then of course there is the thorny issue of whether your actions should affect how the war at large progresses in a campaign. Purists would probably say no, but on the other hand if you've just hammered a bunch of troops in your Sopwith Camel at twenty feet off the deck and come back with your plane looking like a sieve, it would be nice to see your efforts stemming an attack and maybe making a little bulge in the lines. This however, is where the problems might start: With sims such as First Eagles, where the terrain is made up of small tiles, it is relatively easy to alter the terrain map in the sim to reflect that sort of thing, but I don't think it would be quite so simple in RoF, which seems to have a lot larger terrain tiles, although they could of course simply have three versions of the front: a static one and one for each side depending on how well they are doing.

I guess we shall see. As you say, there is the language barrier too, although for Richthofen's early flying career at least, some Russian might actually be a plus! But for the Western Front, it would be a bit naff to have Ginger strolling into the mess after a patrol with a cheery: 'Spasebo comrades! What a wizard prang on the Hun that was by the freedom-loving heroes of the RFC! Join me in a spot of Borscht will you?'

Al

[sightreader]

Originally Posted by Chock

I think that aspect is sorely missing from RoF.

Hmm... what if RoF were simply to provide a basic engine for squadron operations (like a database, auto resolution of non-player missions, newsflash formats, a branching plot based on mission results, so on and so forth) and then just hand it to the user community to develop their own campaigns?

The idea here is that you provide users with a framework to literally write branching novels that players can download and participate in.

[Tom_Cervo]

I think the Dynamix sims, of which the original Red Baron was one, provided a very good mix of immersion and (for the time) sim. They are remembered very fondly, and I think for more than nostalgia. While you couldn't really affect a campaign, you had a personal campaign. Fail a mission and you flew another, very like it. Do well, and you rose in the ranks. Sometimes you'd get a warning about a new type coming into service. A constant mistake would bring a comment from a mechanic.
Though scripted, the scripts were good.
I recall one in particular from A-10 Tank Killer. You had to protect a rescue mission for a downed A-6. I got there late, and instead saw a group of Iraqi AFV's. I happily shot them up.
When I got back, I found out that the downed pilot had been captured, and was in one of those AFV's.
You don't get that anymore.

[Sagittarius]

One of the first games i've played when i got my fist computer - an amiga - was the 1990 classic "Wings". I've never played a ww1 game after it that, which came close to the immersion I've got with this particular game.

It has a very cinematic approach, a war-diary, a contemporary 1910's music score, silent-movie-like intertitles instead of loading screens and occasional newspaper headlines keeping you informed about the war-time events.
It was not as much a sim as it was "Red Baron" (only one flight model, rather 'basic' graphics) but i was very dissapointed seeing the almost not existent storyline compared to "Wings" which lit the fire of ww1 enthusiams in me.

[stevedrew]

All of the above posters talking about Campaigns and immersion should REALLY go and check out Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven and Hell.

The Campaign there is brilliant. Enlist a pilot (British, German, French, American), choose your style (fighter or bomber), then you choose your squadron. you are given a lot of choices, from AFC to RFC to RNAS (in the British campaign). Once you open the squadron window, you are told what "Aces" are active in your squadron, and what aircraft were utilised by that squadron. You then choose what date you wish to enlist.

In RNAS 8 fighter squadron, for instance, you are told that they utilised Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter, Nieuport 17, Sopwith Pup, Sopwith Triplane, Sopwith Camel. If you wish to begin at the earliest possible date, you will be told what airfield the Squadron were based at during that period, and what aircraft you will be flying. If you wish to fly out of Vert Galant, you can scroll through enlistment dates until it shows that the Squadron was based there. Want to fly the Sopwith Triplane? No problems...scroll through the times until it shows that the squadron were equipped with that aircraft.

After enlistment, you are taken to the squadron "Ready Room" and "meet" the squadron aces, and the rest of the pilots. You will be taken to the "Briefing Room" and told what type of mission you will be flying, who your wingman will be, the other members in your flight, and whether another flight with a few Aces will accompany you, or escort you. All other details of the mission are outlined here. As Chock said "it definitely makes a sim more 'personal', since the major aspect of flying in a squadron in wartime is coping with the losses, and not just how many planes you have shot down. I think that aspect is sorely missing from RoF". You definitely get to know your wingman, and get concerned if he doesn't return from the mission. Loss is tragic here. Total immersion.

If you don't want to fly that particular mission, or wish to go to another location for that mission, there is that choice.

Want to fly DiD Standard? (Dead is Dead)...full realism, realistic flight models, and gunnery accuracy, and NO choice of whether you'd like to save this mission or not (so you can choose "no" and re-fly until you survive the mission...your pilot will die). Is that a bit too "realistic" for you? No problem, you can choose all of those realistic options and tick the "pilot never dies" box.

Total immersion? The weather is realistic. If you are going on a mission on for instance 15th December 1917, and it was snowing heavily that day, you will be informed of that by the Meteorology Officer, and your flight will be scrubbed. On days and theatres where historically a "Push" was on (ie The Somme), your mission will be to assist with this push in whatever way. When you near the lines, you will witness the massive bombardments that pre-empt these pushes. You will see troops walking across No Man's Land. If the push (historically) was successful, you will see that the front lines have moved.

If you are successful in aerial combat and defeated an opponent, upon your return you will be presented with a claim form to fill out. Can't remember the names of your wingmen? (actually, that's unlikely because of the bond you form with them) Well, if you can't produce the names of witnesses, and the time and location of the "victory", it may be rejected.

TOTAL IMMERSION? Yes indeed.

[Tom_Cervo]

"Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven and Hell."

You make a very good case, but . . .
what's the spec--processor, video card, HD space to run it--and I don't mean the "lies on the box", we've all been burned that way--what works for you?

Do you need CFS3?

Can you get it in one install, or does it need multiple downloads/patches to get it to optimal state?