ID MYSTERY EHRENBECHER "SOLVED"

VtwinVince · 12 July 2005, 02:18 PM

Absolutely amazing story, and an equally fantastic award. Is there any speculation as to the number of these bechers awarded? As an aside, my dad was living as a refugee after the war on the Rhein, and his neighbour, with whom he chatted regularly, was none other than Freiherr Treusch von Buttlar-Brandenfels.

Aerowallah · 12 July 2005, 02:43 PM

Wow, now that is cool...I'd take him for a neighbour over Heidi Klum any day. First thing I'd ask him was what he had against the Army crews! Reading his book, he did not come off too stiff-necked, and had a sense of humour.

I've never heard a number on how many goblets might have been made. Take a small town like Modros and count all urban targets of equal population or more. But we don't have the documents to account for all the raids that were flown. And then were they deemed successful? Volkmann, in his own Rangliste, does not mention the historic May 31 raid on London as successful!

It's possible they made so many goblets then ran out of money and shut the program down--just like the US Aero Club Medal, sponsored by the US Aero Club. Literature in 1917 said every Allied pilot would receive one. And now you see one or two of the named bronze table medals in a lifetime of collecting. The few I've seen in collections have all been to Allied and American pilots who received the DSC and its equivalent, or higher (with a few exceptions). So at some point in 1918 they cut their program way back.

And then there was WW2 and the hyperinflation. A LOT of precious metal collectibles including Bechers were probably melted down in the `20s and `30s...

1 August 2005, 10:00 PM

Gentlemen,

A little bit off the subject. I'm surprised that only one Zeppelin commander won the Pour le Merite during WWI. That was Horst Freiherr Treusch von Buttlar-Brandenfels of the German Naval Airship service. Not even Heinrich Mathy who didn't get it although he may have being recommended for one. :

Sincerely,

Edward

rammjaeger · 2 August 2005, 08:32 AM

I saw this thread a bit late but will add my 5 cents now:

>>The inscriptions on the five known cups are:

20.12.1914 Mlawa (outside Warsaw)
20.3.1915 Paris
31.5.1915 London (Urkunde named to C. Volkmann)
4.2.1916 Dünaburg (in Latvia, Urkunde named to G. Jockers)
20./21.3.1917 Modros (Mesopotamia?)<<

20.12.1914 Mlawa - if a Zeppelin attack then I would bet on "Z. IV"
20.3.1915 Paris - attacked by "Z. X" and "L.Z. 35" this date, third ship (S.L. II) did not make it to Paris because of ground defence
31.5.1915 London - "L.Z. 38"
4.2.1916 Dünaburg - "L.Z. 86"
20./21.3.1917 "Modors" - in fact it is Mudros in Macedonia, "L.Z. 101"

VBR
Rammjaeger

rammjaeger · 2 August 2005, 10:44 AM

A neutral paper (Denmark) reported on 22 December 1914 about a new German attack with a Zeppelin against Warschau with 18 bombs: 2 houses destroyed, 90 dead and 50 wounded [?]. One day later aircraft dropped 6 bombs on the town.

Did they mean the attack against Mlawa [? or in fact Warschau?] on 20 December 1914?

Aerowallah · 9 August 2005, 05:51 PM

I don't know! Mlawa is apprently 106 km from Warsaw City centre...not exactly a suburb, but guards the approaches to Warsaw as the German Army discovered in 1939.

Here are the other photos again from the first thread which dropped off. I also have a huge plaque given to every crew member who took part in the first bombing on London which I'll post shortly...

Roadhog · 5 September 2005, 05:08 AM

Great research job with hardly any hard evidence to go on. I think the use of Thor was an excellent choice for German flyers and air crews. Besides being the Nordic god of idle naughtiness, he was the god of thunder, war and strength. He also made the other god's armor and weapons and what else were bombs from the air? VR, Roadhog, "Memento mori."

P.S. I just made up that naughtiness stuff.

wulffo · 7 October 2005, 05:18 AM

http://cgi.ebay.de/Ein-bisher-unbeka...QQcmdZViewItem

I just found this on the Zepplin Ehrenbecher you may want to get your hands on it along with your Becher Aerowallah

Aerowallah · 7 October 2005, 05:45 AM

Thanks for the tip, Wulffo. I've been looking for a copy for years. Klaus von Borrmeister is the historian credited with re-discovering the Thor Becher.
Rgds

This is a page from the monograph. It shows the Dunaburg cup and Jockers.