German Honor Trophies

[Soderbaum]

Hallo Klaus

This information about the Fliegerbecher was really interesting and new for me.

Therefore I did check up some of notes, and found that on 1 Aug 1918 that Sachsenberg, Osterkamp and Ofmst Meyer all were awarded the Ehrenbecher(Fliegerbecher?).

Meyers award seem to have been posthumous..!

If we for example summarize Oterkamps awards they are:
The Ehrenbecher(Army) in Febr 1917
The Ehrenpreis on 14 April 1917
The Ehrenbecher(Marine?) on 1 Aug 1918
then PlM

Similar for Sachsenberg ought to be:
The Ehrenbecher(Army) probably late May 1917
The Ehrenbecher(Marine?) on 1 Aug 1918
then PlM
The Ehrenpreis on 31 Aug 1918

If anyone new more about the Marine Fliegerbecher, I am very interested to have information..

???
Gunnar

[Regulus]

Hi,

As I already mentioned on another part of the Forum, naval pilots were normally awarded the PlM after downing their 15th enemy plane, even at the end of the war. *Some people 'missed the boat' it seems. *A good example was also Alexander Zenses.
Proof on this comes out of the award on the PlM for Sachsenberg and Osterkamp.
I have translations of every PlM (also Oakleaves, etc) awarded from 1888 till 1918.

I love the Waldorf cigarette books. *I have one on the uniforms of the Kaiserliche Marine and the Schutztruppen in Africa during WW I. *It is absolutely splendid !

I have never heard or read anything about a specific Marine Fliegerbecher (also see the Tagesbefehl), interesting !

Best from Johan *

[ehrenpries]

Ref. Oncle Osterkamps' Ehrenpreis for first aerial victory.

Once again apologies for an observer in such illustrious company as Soderbaum and Regulus aces but my reference (German Knights of the Air by Treadwell and Wood) have his first victory at 30/4/1917 over Oosterke.Soderbaum mentions
14/4/17 .Ive seen a couple of conflicting reports as to what type of aircraft were involved and the date. I would be fascinated by a reply from them 'wot know about such matters!

(It may be only a few days difference but quite important to my research if you can help)

Regards from downunder

Tony (Ehrenpreis)

ps Soderbaum can you clarify for which actions the 3 Osterkamp awards were made in your post above please?

[Soderbaum]

Hi Ehrenpreis

Osterkamps Army Ehrenbecher was for his first victory which actually was scored in early Sep 1916...

The Ehrenpreis(correct date 18 Apr 1917) was also for his first victory. Possible the Marine authorities was not aware of that he "meanwhile" have received the Ehrenbecher...and we knew that Theo always had the "luck" on his side..

The background for the award on 1 Aug 1918 of the Ehrenbecher(again or Marine??) is unknown to me, but perhaps the Fliegerbecher is the answer..?

The background material for these awards is possible among the material which "recently" was stolen from the archive in Freiburg.. :'(

:
Gunnar

[Regulus]

Gunnar,

I'm being a little bit curious as I don't have anything on the 1st August 1918 awards. May I know what is the source of that ? I have never seen anything on it before, so this is really interesting stuff !

Thanks and best from Johan

[Soderbaum]

Hi Regulus

The reference for the 1st Aug 1918 awards is the daily order the Kofl MK Nr 88.

:
Gunnar

[Regulus]

Thanks Gunnar !

Not difficult I didn't have it as I don't have this material yet ! Something for a next visit at Freiburg. I start to think it might be an expensive trip !

Best from Johan

[ehrenpries]

GDay
There is a nice Honor Goblet WW1 in case of issue on Detlev Niemann site with some lovely pictures............but at US$7420 I will have to leave it to a more financial forumite!!
Tony (Ehrenpreis)

[KlausTho]

Hello, Gunnar:

Rereading the book from Theo Osterkamp, Du oder Ich (You or I), 1938, Berlin, A. Nauck & Co. I found nothing about his Honor Trophies (neither Cup nor Ehrenpreis), only that he downed an a/c as observer end of 1916, while serving in II. Marine-Feldfliegerabteilung in Morseele. He received his EK I also as observer in summer 1916.
In summer? 1917 when the Kaiser was visiting Brugge, he received the Hohenzollern, having 8 downings more in the MFJ , where he served since April 1917 (29.04.1917= first war activity of the new founded MFJ, first victory of the MFJ and first victory of Osterkamp as single seater fighter).
Shortly after he was downed with an Fokker monoplane, so he wrote (August/September 1918?), he downed number 27 and 28 getting aspirant of the PlM. That would combine with my above note, that the single seater pilots had to down 25 a/c to get the PlM. At Oktober 1918 he finished with 32 claims recognized (His personal notes finished with 59 downings). He got ill with a nervous fever.
The remark of Regulus (15 for the naval pilots) probably is also right, but Osterkamp wasn´t naval pilot in WWI. I think that my father, being naval pilot, counted therefore also that 15 victories would be enough getting the PlM, but I doubt that he would received it in the MJG Flandern, because the squadron (belonging to the Marine) was a terrestrial one. With a sea plane it was a lot more difficult to down an adversary. But I think that my reflections have to be discussed, to get a clearer view.

Regards Klaus

[Soderbaum]

Hallo Klaus

I certainly agree that it was more difficult for a Sea-plane crew to obtain a victory compared with a land-based fighter pilot like Osterkamp...
....the reason is simple it was "unusual" that you actually met an enemy opponent over Sea, and those you met were probably less aggressive to fight...

However it is possible that the German Sea-plane crews were compensated in some ways, for example "easier" awards...?
It is also "true" in my meaning that the German Marine Force did make a "clear" distinction between "true" Marine pilots and those who flew land-based a/c..

Osterkamps book is usable in my meaning as a counter reference, because most histories in there, do have a historical background, despite that Theo made the stories "a bit" better...
One problem is that he dont have a good historic line, which is easy to follow...

MFJ(later renamed MFJ I) was actually formed already on 1 Febr 1917, when MFFA II was renamed.
At this stage MFFA II only consisted of one-seater pilots, so it was a easy task...!
The "underpart" of MFFA I stationed mostly at Beveren was the same day renamed to "new" MFFA II.
The first victory was scored the same month and two more were scored before late Apr 1917.

However on 30 Apr 1917 MFJ was reported fully operational, which means that it was in full strength, probably 13 pilots and some more ready a/c.
Still in Feb 1917 they fighted with only around 10 pilots and not so good a/c..

The "unlucky" Theo did NOT got the claim on 30 Apr 1917 confirmed, but it is clearly that he was disappointed with this decision for a long part of his life.. :'(

I havent seen the actual proposals for Osterkamp and Sachsenbergs PlM awards, so I dont knew if they were dated after their 15 or 20 victory respectively...?
However I am interested to obtain copies of these proposals, because they can contain valuable information.
The proposal of Christiansen promotion to Kapitänleutnant dR MA is to be found in Freiburg...

:
Gunnar