von Schleich's Ribbon

8 April 2003, 04:24 PM

Hi everyone,

I have attached a photo of von Schleich and Udet probably taken during the Spring/Summer of 1918. This is because coats and hats are not worn, and Udet is wearing his PLM, awarded on April 9, 1918. What I am concerned about is the ribbon that von Schleich is wearing through his button in his tunic.

At first I thought it was for his Iron Cross second class, but now I am not too sure. Von Schleich was also awarded the Saxon Knight's Cross and the Albrecht Order 2nd class during the war. He was also awarded the Military Max-Joseph Order, but the date of this award is open for speculation. One source states that he was awarded it in December 1918, and it was back-dated to June 1918, while others state it was awarded in June or July of that year.

Because the picture is black and white, I am unsure of the colors of the ribbon. Can anyone inform me of what they believe this ribbon is. Also, if you can give me the dates for his awards and decorations during the war, it would be greatly appreciated.

regards

AOK4 · 8 April 2003, 08:30 PM

Hello,

According to the official book about the MMJO, von Schleich was given the MMJO on 14 June 1918.

Regards,
Jan

9 April 2003, 01:23 PM

Hi AOK4,

Thanks for your input. For reference purposes, what is the name of the offical book on the Max-Joseph, and who was the author(s)? I have always felt that there is more credence in the assumption that the June date was more correct. This is because I have seen a Sanke card (#644), with his title 'Ritter von', having a sequence number that would put it around the middle of the year, 1918. What are your thoughts on the ribbon he is wearing?

regards

AOK4 · 9 April 2003, 11:27 PM

Hello wingedwarrior,

The full title is: Der k. b. Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden (ed.). Der königlich bayerische Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden. Kriegstaten und Ehrenbuch 1914-1918. München, 1966.

I guess the ribbon could be either IC2 or MMJO, I tend to go for the second possibility but I am not sure about this. My knowledge about medals etc. is not that good.

Regards,
Jan

tamerlane · 10 April 2003, 12:42 PM

It's difficult to see very clearly from the photo, but is it possible he is wearing TWO ribbons? Often the ribbon of the Iron Cross 2nd class would be worn with another ribbon, and in this case it would probably be the MMJO ribbon.

It's mostly speculation, but I think the EK2 is on the top, and the MMJO is on the botton, and the adjoining edges of both ribbons are folded or rolled back so that the edge stripes are not visible, making it look like one wide black ribbon.

Tim

10 April 2003, 12:53 PM

I appreciate all the help guys. You gave me new avenues to investigate about this ribbon. It is very interesting to hear of the two ribbon concept. I will look into that further.

regards

Immo_Frese · 10 April 2003, 01:32 PM

Hi,

after looking a little bit deeper on the picture I linked in your other thread about the "Saxon Knight's Cross" there is the possibility that the ribbon belongs to the Saxonian Albert-Order :-/
I think you are on the right track!

Take a look...

Best, Immo

tamerlane · 10 April 2003, 03:39 PM

Aha! A close inspection of the photo and a consultation of my Nimmergut tome, volumes 1 & 3 leads me to yet another hair-brained conclusion:

There are NOT two ribbons, but only one ribbon in the photo. If you compare it to the size of the PLM badges these men are wearing, especially the sideways view of von Schleich's, you can guess the width of this ribbon as something around 40mm at the point where it folds over the front of his tunic. (The PLM should be about 51 to 52mm, but sometimes as much as 56mm.) The statutory ribbon for the iron cross is only 35mm, but the correct ribbon for the MMJO is 40mm.

So my new theory is that he is wearing ONLY the ribbon for the Max Joseph Order in his buttonhole. The light color on the border stripes is not one color, but both the light blue and white that are side-by-side on the MMJO ribbon. They just blend together in the monochrome photo.

Tim

11 April 2003, 04:42 PM

Thank you again Immo and tamerlane. Yes, I was wondering if the ribbon was the Albrecht Order. I am still not sure. I guess that I can rule out the EK2 as a possibility, because the ribbon is just too wide to be it. Tamerlane, what would be thew width of the ribbon for the Albrecht order? It definitely could be the MMJO, but I think that it also may be the AO. What are your thoughts on this?

regards

tamerlane · 14 April 2003, 04:35 PM

The Albrecht Orden ribbon should be 36mm, with 2mm green edges, white stripes of about 6mm, and the green center stripe about 20mm.

One thing I think is significant point is that Schleich was a native Bavarian, and he entered military service to advance his social position, working his way up from an enlisted rank to earn a commision as a Leutnant in 1910. This gives me reason to believe that he might have worn the MMJO ribbon alone in his buttonhole, as a sign of the significance this award had for him.

Of course, if this photo were taken before he won the MMJO, all of that would be irrelevant. But for my money, I'd still say it's the MMJO ribbon.

Tim