Question about PLM acquired with lot of WWII stuff

[owensct]

Hi all,

New to the group and was hoping some of the more knowledgeable members might be able to give me some additional insight on a PLM that I acquired.

I purchased a number of WWII items from a dealer who was selling them for a man in his 80’s. The items I purchased as a lot were the following:

1. A Pour Le Merite medal with no ribbon or case
2. A WWII Iron Cross 1st Class
3. A head band from British Royal Navy labeled HMS Collingwood
4. A US infantry mess kit
5. A WWII era book of ration stamps

According to the dealer these items were the original property, (relativity speaking) of the man he was selling them for. The man was in the US infantry in Germany at the close of WWII. He brought the items back when him as souvenirs when he came home. He picked up the PLM and Iron Cross in Germany at the end of the war, the mess kit was his personal mess kit as an infantryman and I am guessing that he obtained the HMS Collingwood head band in England either on his way to the European theatre via England or on the return trip. The rations stamps he obviously got when he returned to the US. The items were stored in a box in his attic after the war until he decided to sell them on consignment with the dealer that I bought them from.

Before anybody gets excited ;-) from what I have read on this board and from the pictures I’ve seen the PLM appears to be either a fake or a jeweler’s copy and a very poor one at that. The PLM has no markings anywhere that I can find and I gone over it multiple times with a 10x loupe. There is no enamel on the back and the feet of the eagles are separate from the tail, but are not near as detailed as those I’ve seen in various pictures. The eagles are molded in such a way that the beak is connected to one of the wings.

I was hoping someone on the board could provide me with some additional information on the PLM. To the best of my ability I have verified that the Iron Cross, HMS Collingwood head band, mess kit and ration book are authenticate and at least in the case of the mess kit, Iron Cross and ration book from the correct period. All of the items have wear that I believe would be consistent with a GI carrying/using them. I’m not sure how or if it’s possible to determine the period of the head band.

I've included a picture of the PLM and can upload pictures of the other items as well if anyone would like to see them.

And yes this sounds like one of those stories you hear from time to time about the guys who stumbles across the mint condition antique car that was stored in a barn and the husband never came back from the war and a guy stumbles across it and buys it for a song from the guy’s widow, but I figured what the hey even if the story is bunk I only paid around $ 100 for the lot and I figured that the Iron Cross is at least worth that much.

Any info is much appreciated.

Gordon

[Laserlloyd]

It is sometimes hard to tell because pilots would have their local silversmith make a Wear copy/s to wear while that where flying. This would make up for a lot of thePLM's.

Lloyd...

[owensct]

Thanks Laserlloyd.

I've had it sitting on a shelf in my office with all the other stuff since I bought it about a year and a half ago and couldn't sleep last night so I started poking around on the web and decided I would post to the forum to see if somebody had any ideas on what it was; fake, copy, Jewelers copy, WWI era, WWII era, Post-WWII etc.

I'm not even sure what it's made of, looks like brass to me. It doesn't seem to be silver and I doubt it's gold. Plus if it was gold or silver wearer copy wouldn't it be marked in some fashion even if it was made by a local small time jeweler of the period? It doesn't have any tarnish to speak of like other brass items I have and it is kind of heavy.

Guess I'll have to break out the scale and calipers when I get home and get some measurements and maybe have another go with the loupe.

Cheers,

Gordon

[FliegerJG1]

Your medal does look unusually heavy. I'm not an medals expert--just an observer--however the originals that I have seen have more delicate work on the eagles and the cross itself. The blue color is softer too. If you compare medals the difference is noticeable.

Here's a website with quite a lot on the types of the PlM.

Pour le Merite types

FliegerJG1

[Jim]

1. Never believe a story that stuff from an old soldier is what they say it is. Almost always it is not. On occasion you get lucky, but unless something has some serious documentation then a story should be ignored as something that is highly unlikely.

2. For every real PLM, there are many thousands of fakes, and fakes have been made since the day after the Great War. Yes there are some re-strikes from original dies and jeweler's copies that were purchased after the war by pilots, but even those are very rare. Your PLM seems to be lacking the detail that any self-respecting jeweler would include, and it definitely does not have the detail of an original or even a restrike from original dies. And as you mention, there are no markings on it and it is likely base metal with soft enamel. One can never tell 100% without a close examination, but this one does not look right to me.

[Rod_Filan]

Originally Posted by owensct

3. A head band from British Royal Navy labeled HMS Collingwood

Ummm... it's called a cap tally.


Cheers

[owensct]

Hi Guys,

Thanks FliegerJG1, Rod and Jim for the info.

Well I did some did some weighing and measuring last night as well as going over the PLM with the loupe again.

It weighs 28.41 grams
From top to bottom at the V in the cross it is 34.81mm
From left to right at the V in the cross it is 35.04mm
In looking over it with the loupe there are some things that might be writing, but the PLM is really grimy and I'm reluctant to clean it.

Jim, Your thoughts are pretty much what I was thinking it doesn't have the quality that I would expect from a Jeweler's copy or a re-strike, nor would I expect a receipant to have/wear one with such poor attention to detail in lieu of his presentation copy. I looked at the pictures that Rod suggested, and while some of them are close, none of them look like it especially in regards to the level of detail. The pictures I looked at are all much more detailed.

Is there a defenitive guide to PLM's with lots of details and closeup pictures that anyone is aware of?

I've attached some additional pictures just for kicks and grins.

Cheers,

Gordon

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by owensct

Hi all,

New to the group and was hoping some of the more knowledgeable members might be able to give me some additional insight on a PLM that I acquired.

I purchased a number of WWII items from a dealer who was selling them for a man in his 80’s. The items I purchased as a lot were the following:

1. A Pour Le Merite medal with no ribbon or case
2. A WWII Iron Cross 1st Class
3. A head band from British Royal Navy labeled HMS Collingwood
4. A US infantry mess kit
5. A WWII era book of ration stamps

According to the dealer these items were the original property, (relativity speaking) of the man he was selling them for. The man was in the US infantry in Germany at the close of WWII. He brought the items back when him as souvenirs when he came home. He picked up the PLM and Iron Cross in Germany at the end of the war, the mess kit was his personal mess kit as an infantryman and I am guessing that he obtained the HMS Collingwood head band in England either on his way to the European theatre via England or on the return trip. The rations stamps he obviously got when he returned to the US. The items were stored in a box in his attic after the war until he decided to sell them on consignment with the dealer that I bought them from.

Before anybody gets excited ;-) from what I have read on this board and from the pictures I’ve seen the PLM appears to be either a fake or a jeweler’s copy and a very poor one at that. The PLM has no markings anywhere that I can find and I gone over it multiple times with a 10x loupe. There is no enamel on the back and the feet of the eagles are separate from the tail, but are not near as detailed as those I’ve seen in various pictures. The eagles are molded in such a way that the beak is connected to one of the wings.

I was hoping someone on the board could provide me with some additional information on the PLM. To the best of my ability I have verified that the Iron Cross, HMS Collingwood head band, mess kit and ration book are authenticate and at least in the case of the mess kit, Iron Cross and ration book from the correct period. All of the items have wear that I believe would be consistent with a GI carrying/using them. I’m not sure how or if it’s possible to determine the period of the head band.

I've included a picture of the PLM and can upload pictures of the other items as well if anyone would like to see them.

And yes this sounds like one of those stories you hear from time to time about the guys who stumbles across the mint condition antique car that was stored in a barn and the husband never came back from the war and a guy stumbles across it and buys it for a song from the guy’s widow, but I figured what the hey even if the story is bunk I only paid around $ 100 for the lot and I figured that the Iron Cross is at least worth that much.

Any info is much appreciated.

Gordon

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship of the Aerodrome - where the greatest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. Werner Voss fan here.

[wingandprop]

Without meaning to sound harsh, your PLM is a very low quality trinket: something that might be sold for $10 at an aviation museum bookstore along with fake pilot wings, naugahyde "bomber jackets" and the like. In fact, even among trinkets, it is on the lower end of the spectrum. The measurements can be off considerably, as they were made by individual jewelers, some of whom made many and some of whom made quite few, but both sides of the decoration should be enameled and the detail is not lacking so much as it doesn't exist. (It really does sound harsh to write this, but most you will see being sold as souvenirs actually are two sided and much more detailed. This one really isn't even close.) Here is an example of what the reverse should look like. (This one is pretty nicked up and scratched, to the point of requiring repairs to chips to the enamel, from riding the metal button at the wearer's throat, but it gives you the idea of both the appearance of the reverse and the detail in the eagles...and there are some that are even more detailed than this one.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../IMG_2530a.png

[wingandprop]

A site that can tell you everything there is to tell you about your iron cross (and more) is: Orders & Decorations of the Third Reich
They are always happy to talk about EK's. They enjoy inquiries like yours.