Another Richthofen this time the real McCoy?

[wulffo]

Originally Posted by Amy

Regarding the good postcards that get tainted with phoney autographs: How much worth do they lose? Or, does a good MvR postcard with a phoney autograph hold the same value as a good MvR postcard sans phoney autograph? Anybody know? Joe Gertler?

As far as I am concerned that is worse than writting on the front or a downsizing. If I were offered one with a certain fake i'd pay no more than 15 euros regardless of the person on the cards probably less if i'd buy them at all. for one of the 13 cards I am still missing I might pay up though

[FliegerJG1]

Two more signed Richthofen Sanke cards found on eBay Germany.

Manfred

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...150156765&rd=1

Lothar

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...149922698&rd=1

VBR..FliegerJG1

[joegertler]

"Regarding the good postcards that get tainted with phoney autographs:"
I am in complete agreement with Wulffo. It would sharply lower the value compared to an unsigned card. Most collectors would consider it as "defaced."
If I were pricing it-I'd have to consider valuing it at approx one-quarter the value of an unsigned card. (saleable only as a "reference filler" until a better one came along)As a potential buyer/collector, I would not want it. I am NOT talking about any specific card. Just any card with a fake signature.
I try to buy from well-know collectors and collections of older collections. (before they were worth forging.) It is a very dicey game to declare an autograph a fake.. I have numerous corporate archives (of unquestionable authenticity and provenance,) where the famous signatures and documents and "notes" vary in the extreme and some are highly "atypical," having possibly been signed on their knee in a moving automobile. and others at a desk. etc etc. I would rather buy an atypical autograph from a solid provenance (family or corporate archives Or life-long early collector such as Paul Matt & a small handfull of long-time dealers I know) than one that looks "spot-on" from a general auction house. Where it came from, makes a huge value difference, down the line...Novice collectors can buy these with confidence, where they would not touch many others (that might be perfectly good) from a general autograph dealer or general auction. The potential market and demand and value are increased manyfold, with good provenance. Especially for the high value items (even though the standards should apply just as much to the lower value items.)

[ehrenpries]

You are right Joe...but oh how hard it is to find items with rock solid provenance.

I will have to respectfully differ a touch and say that examples like the MvR that FliegerJG1 kindly brought our attention to, is so obviously far from an original, that even on his knee in an automobile our Manfred would have done a more convincing job, even allowing for the shakes ! It is a problem in our collecting that the last thing we want is a 'cookie-cutter' autograph, but it is 'the fun' of it to back ones decision when an autograph has sufficient characteristics to be taken seriously, or not. As a friend of mine from the UACC said.."If in doubt throw it out" but "If you think you are right buy it on sight "

As someone wise said....(taking it our judgement in seperating the rubbish from what is not, is working !!)......."You can never pay too much................You can only buy too early !"

Happy Hunting

Ehrenpries

[joegertler]

Hi E. I always enjoy your comments on collecting. Many of us understand your enjoyment and appreciation of such treasures as autographs. I'm always eager to hear observations made from your years of experience. (and learn from them)
As far as "differing," I probably should have added the word "usually" before "dicey." Unless we were there, in person when something was signed, we have no absolutes...Sure we all desire a strong provenance, but they are few and far between.
I follow one other website,daily, just for its member's experiences in collecting autographs of considerable value and closely related to aviation-
www.collectspace.com
There is a special section for autographs and another special section labeled "opinions."
They discuss space (& test pilots etc) autographs offered on Ebay, on a daily basis. There is a LOT of discussion on "atypical" autographs. With many of the autographs mentioned being very expensive or valuable, these collectors do their honest best to advise each other and ask for, or seek opinions of those who have decades of experience collecting in that field. "Usually" there s some consensus. But I find it most disturbing when three long-time, experienced collectors (and/or dealers) say an item on Ebay is an obvious or laughable fake, and three others might say, It is "good as gold" about the same item. I wonder how the seller feels. If he doesn't know (without doubt) that it is genuine who does he believe? Some withdraw the item and others write nasty responses. If it IS genuine, have these people (who haven't seen it in person, and may be "certain" it is a fake because it is so "atypical," cost him a considerable amount of money and scared off the bidders?
Some sellers will swear to authenticity of "atypical" with just the example I had mentioned. They had one autograph signed at a desk at an autograph show, and another (that looked nothing like it) signed, in person, as it was held in hand, while walking or moving etc. It is a very interesting discussion board. Most of the autographs I have declared fakes for others, have been those with wrong dates, or mention historical circumstances and facts, that clearly disprove them. My favorite was an Ebay item bid to $2800 supposed to have been signed by Samuel Langley (and numerous other famous aviation notables)in 1927 or 1928-when he died in 1906! It was a facsimile signature..
As you mention, sometimes the challenge of supporting authenticity can be rewarding and enjoyable. I had to have an independent, third-party professional appraisal done on some material a museum was buying. This "expensive" aviation expert told me that one of the documents signed by Earle Ovington was defintiely NOT his signature. as he had a "genuine" one. He held fast to this decision, without any room for doubt-until I told him that that my document had been in the company files of The Curtiss Aeroplane Co. and, later, Curtiss-Wright, since 1918 and there was absolutely no doubt about it, he compared them and realized that HIS was the obvious fake. He asked if he could buy my real one..And his nationally advertised professional aviation appraisal service was VERY expensive. We are all capable of mistakes, I suppose.
I've posted an image of that document in the PIONEER section of the forum.
I think another cool thread might be about special surprise, finds (at yard sales or in the bottom of an auction box lot, or a slip of paper or letter inside the cover of an old book etc. Any good stories out there?

[ehrenpries]

Thanks Joe
Without sounding like a psychophant.(sorry Im not going to look that up in the dictionary to see if I spelt it right !) but I always appreciate your balanced and fair overall view.

Without letting the cat out of the bag.........c'mon guys dont gazump me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!- Im interested in a signature on ebay at the moment that is atypical BUT has the provenance.

I think that you are quite right, but I doubt VERY MUCH if any ebay sellers come under any serious pressure or challenge from the Aerodrome...........the only times Ive ever been aware of a fellow Aerodrome Forum member selling an item it has NEVER attracted dissension. Hopefully our fellow members are 'fair Dinkum' as we say 'downunder' ,and I would be surprised if known FOrum members would be questioned about their listings ,and even if they were, they would be responsible enough to consider the advice.

Unfortunately it is natural to want to defend that a collectors item is genuine, while another that looks different is not, but I would hope that most established Forum members would wear that disclosure on the chin, and not wish to pass their mistake onto someone else.

I have an MvR that is very atypical, but linked to an official document with all the same atypical characteristics, it becomes a prize. Until I found that unquestionable document it looked very dicey !!! I thought that Id been had up until then !

One can only apply all the skills that one can muster to try to buy correctly and as the years go buy I find it is easier and easier....probably abit like a wine connosieur who can tell which side of the hill the grape wa s harvested !But unfortunately I am years away from that status. I was amazed when Stefan Korlin warned me off a Immelmann and another medal collector warned me off a Battle of Britain bar and they were both right. Ive alot to learn. The trouble is that when one has wanted an item for so long ,that when one comes up, it is so easy to 'pretend' it is right and decieve yourself.

I guess we have to accept these limitations and either enjoy the 'sport' or not bother....for my money Im still in there and enjoying that if not every item I have is absolutely and unqestionably as good as if I had been there at the signing ,then I am confident that nearly of them were. !!!!!!!!!!!

Great stuff Joe....Im going to get a scanner ...........promise....apparently HF is getting one so he can share some gems on your memorabila thread.

More mulled wine nurse

Ehrenpries

Hello Tony and Joe-
I have been enjoying this thread you guys have going. If there was a word to describe someone before they were a neophyte autograph collector (pre-neophyte?!) that would be me!! While I have collected signatures for many years, I am new to WW1 personages. I have to thank folks like Ehrenpries, Amy and others for their tips. As you mentioned Tony, I actually picked up a scanner 2 days ago and am going to have a friend hook it up for me tomorrow. If it is as easy to use as I hear (I have a hard time turning on the computer let alone anything else) then I look forward to sharing some of my autographs with you all. Does anyone have a good example of Voss out there? I have been looking for an example of his to add to my collection, but want to have a good one to compare it to first. I have enjoyed your site as well Joe. You have some mouth watering material.... HF

[ehrenpries]

Ive seen very few examples of Voss' signature. I just went looking then for the samples (photocopied not originals!)that I have as reference, and cant lay my fingers on them at the moment.when I do I will try to scan them on a friends scanner.

The thing is with Voss is that it is a very short and simple signature so it is one that really needs some accompanying provenance like signed ,along with a message from him on the back of a card, stamped and dated ..............or a letter, or document. I think I would be extremely wary of anything 'cut-out' where the signature is in isolation, or a Sanke style card.

This one is a rare bird and the temptation to convince oneself that it is the real deal could be overwhelming.

Ive never seen one for sale, although I am aware of one collector who is 'considering ' selling but there has been a few months passed since that tantilizing info. came my way.So Im not hopeful. There was also (a few months back) some ebayer with a couple of minor items on sale that mentioned in the ebay text that he was going to list a Voss but nothing came of it. I contacted him but got no reply.

If the RIGHT Voss came up I reckon there will be a bloodbath on ebay !

Happy Hunting

Ehrenpries

Roger that Ehrenpries!
Should you run across the Voss samples please keep me in mind! Your cautions regarding his signature are well registered here at History Fan central! Should anyone else find an example they wouldn't mind sharing please keep us in mind. I am hoping my scanner will be up and running this week. I would be happy to share what I have at this time. I currently own Immelmann, Boelcke, MvR, Jacobs, Osterkamp,..... and an Amelia Earhart or two! Happy Hunting!! the HF

Hi Guys,

Rod Filan and I have previously discussed this now well known photo, and he and I tend to think that the signature could possibly be that of Werner Voss. He mentioned that none of the other photos from the Scheffer collection had been written on. What do you all think? (photo from Rod's excellent site)

http://204.83.160.230/archive/scheffer/1917.Fok103.17_Voss.Jasta10_kh.jpg

regards,

Darren