Seeking help identifying holster/GERMAN Pilot Killed 1917

I'm wondering if anyone might be able to identify (possibly verify authenticity) of a claimed WW1 German Pilot's Holster taken as a war trophy following his being assumedly shot down. I only have limited information, that being the German had scribed part of a date and the fact of a plane (British) that he had downed, (then only to be downed himself and this, his holster/semi-automatic weapon taken as a trophy by someone fighting for France or Belgium.)

Inside the holster is written:

KAL. 7,65 (German Name) OBERSTLTN DER LW (unknown# of day).10.1917 (type of British plane)

The "7" is crossed in the continental style, and the "1" has a "tail" on it, so one might assume it was written by a the original owner. KAL 7,65 is written in a continental style, using a comma instead of a full stop. Below are a pic of The holster and a stock photo of the type of firearm that would have been in it.

The firearm that the holster held is thought to be a a Spanish made Eibar 7.65 semi-auto. (Did german pilots carry these???)

I know there isn't much to go on here. The (German Name) and (type of British plane) notation above represents just that - the name of the German, and name of a type of British plane, but that is all I am being told - not the names but that there is one there... so this is sort of a riddle I'm reaching out with to the unequalled knowledge present on this most excellent forum. Thanks!

If he has the full name, and he won't give it to you, I would be suspicious. If it is a real name and can be cross-referenced it would only verify the piece. Refusal to provide a complete name therefore makes no sense unless the seller is worried that the name is a fake, is post-war, etc. That's not to say it might not be real, but I'd exercise some caution.

As to the pistol, the Eibar M 1914 was Spanish made under contract to the French throughout the war. The picture you show has the letters, "RH" inside an oval, stamped on the left grip tang (French WWI contract proof). Certainly, an Eibar could have come into the hands of a German aviator during the war. With the French proof, however, the example you show would not have been private purchase, even if Eibar firearms were otherwise available on the open market. (Ref.: "Spanish Handguns" by Gene Gangarosa Jr., pp.25-38).

The holster is a period French holster. If you had an Eibar available to you, you could put it into the holster and see if the reference marks line up. Holsters are designed to be snug, and a pistol will wear grooves and dimples into the leather just from being carried. Its easy to feel these with your hand and to see what they correspond to on the structure of the pistol. Then, when the pistol that made them slips into the holster, there is no doubt that you have the right pistol. It is surprisingly obvious. (I have a pilot's shoulder holster and I wondered what sort of pistol it had held. It just looked too small to me to have held a Luger, so I found my son's old toy Luger squirt gun just to see if it was even possible for it to hold a pistol about that size. It was an amazingly exact fit. Toy makers do their research.)

The firearm pic is just one off the web of the same type of weapon, not the one that went with the holster, it's marks probably wouldn't, thought might matter. The current owner of the holster is in the UK, claims to have turned the weapon in during the UK's amnesty for handguns, worried he'd end up in the stockades... Yes fishy, fishy he won't divulge the names but he feel's only the buyer is entitled to the info!? (I know that makes a lot of sense ...)

I have a passion for WW1 German aviation, the item is up for auction on that well known worldwide marketplace we all know if anyone's interested, I'm always out to preserve both that history era and authentication of item that are indeed genuine. Hadn't seen an item like it before though and thought a thread here would certainly be educational. Thanks!!

[rammjaeger]

I have the feeling something is wrong here.

>>OBERSTLTN DER LW<<

That means "Oberstleutnant der Luftwaffe".

The Germans (Prussians) were very conservative or reserved with promotions. You could find flying officers with the ranks Leutnant, Oberleutnant and Hauptmann/Rittmeister but an Oberstleutnant is too high for common flying duties. Remember MvR was only Rittmeister!
I don´t think we will find any Oberstleutnant in combat loss lists.

As well the term "Luftwaffe" is not correct. In Fall 1916 the German "Fliegertruppe" was renamed "Deutsche Luftstreitkräfte".
The term Luftwaffe was very seldom used and only in an inoffical manner in WWI.
I can not get rid off the feeling anybody with some WWII knowledge was trying to fake a WWI item.

VBR
Rammjaeger

Our seller/owner of the holster has been overwhelmed with requests for the name apparently, so he's afforded us all a VERY special look at the inside of the holster...

...(of course Secret Squirrel ELECTRONICALLY masked the names of the Pilot/Plane )

This is as much as I can tell you, I do wish I had more. As Rammjaeger pointed out the LW is somewhat unusual... here's the image:

[rammjaeger]

By the way why should a German pilot note a victory against a British aircraft inside the holster of a (maybe captured) foreign pistol?
That makes no sense.

I repeat I have never heard about any German Oberstleutnant flying combat missions, downing an enemy aircraft and being captured afterwards.
I would wonder if Rick or any other Forumite with comprehensive statistical databases could come up with an example for this strange kind of German pilot.

That is all too dubios: Spanish pistole, French holster, British aircraft downed and British victory plus over-ranked German pilot without name!

In fact the presence of the name of a high-ranking German officer would increase the market value a lot - if it is not a fake.

I would not waste 1 cent for this dubios item and seller!

VBR
Rammjaeger

I have to agree with Rammjaeger's assessment. I was baffled as to whether and how much so the owner might have muddled the story/history. The 'L's do seem written by the same hand, If we assume ALL the writing is by the same hand several facts/scenerios could be considered.

What we have is the claim that:

1) a WW1 Spanish made semi-auto fit inside the holster until it was turned in to authorities more or less recently. I wonder if it was what the holster originally contained??

2) Despite the current owners reference relatives fought in France and Belgium, I will assume the holster was brought back by a British soldier or aviator.

3) the Ober... and LW really throws me, perhaps the item had its inscription placed during/after WW2, perhaps as a gift? That doesn't describe the date but there are still two NAMES that vastly would help...

4) The First NAME being the 'German Pilot' Obers... (LW??)

5) The second being what the NAME of the British aircraft was that is referenced.

The item number is 6507859832 should any additional info be unlikely provided by the ever so helpful seller. I'm scratching my head to the point of a bald spot considering the logic of posting something on eBay and saying "This belonged to someone, but I only tell you who if you win the item... " I did manage to get two of my three questions posted at the end of the listing and at least part of the date (shown above) e-mailed to me by the seller.

[Barrett]

In the German Air Service, where Hauptmann (captain) was extremely senior, the chances of a Lt. Col. flying combat is extremely remote.

"KAL 7,65" = 7.65mm caliber.

I'm still puzzled by what little we have to go on... Assuming the writing is genuine/original, perhaps the entire interpretation of the current owner is WRONG.

Perhaps the item was some sort of a gift or 'souvenir' to or from our NONAME Oberstleutnant. The 7.65 is a bit more curious though... A Fringe of letters of our Lt. Col.'s name hasn't been electronically blacked out by Secret Squirrel.

Again, not much to go on, there's no telling how an item would get into the hands of a German/be a gift to a highranking German Officer and then end up with a British Plane name on it and be taken souvenir by a British soldier/Pilot but that may be a good guess. I'll make a good go at getting the names (thought I don't plan to pop $100 for the holster ...) perhaps with a name/s it will make sense. Any guesses on the Oberst...?

Originally Posted by Jagdstaffeln

Perhaps the item was some sort of a gift or 'souvenir' to or from our NONAME Oberstleutnant. The 7.65 is a bit more curious though...

I'll make a good go at getting the names (thought I don't plan to pop $100 for the holster ...)

As Barrett says, the 7.65 is a reference to the caliber. The Eibar was a 7.65mm (as you noted in your original post). FYI, a nearly identical holster was sold a couple months ago on eBay for $152.00 (US). It purportedly had the name of the owner scratched into the leather along with the notation "Pilote".

Like Barrett and Rammjaeger, I think it extremely unlikely you would find an Oberstleutnant in an air combat role. That rank in the Air Service was for staff officers and staff officers didn't fly. Today you can find Col.'s and even the occasional General in the cockpit (though the latter would never be allowed to fly a combat mission), but back then that would have been entirely unheard of except insofar as some senior air officers did qualify as pilots in order to understand better their subordinates' duties, inherent limitations, etc., but they typically did not fly again at all after qualifying. It's possible that the Lt. Col was involved in capturing an aircrew or inspecting the wreckage after a crash somewhere to the rear and he, or someone else, could have souvenired the holster at that time. It could even be that it was taken back from him during WW2, years after his having first received it. Either scenario could account for the rank.