MvR ebay Germany victory #35

FliegerJG1 · 22 April 2008, 04:53 PM

Here's an interesting item up for auction. It is a set of photos of MvR's victory #35 (according to writing on the back) however the number A. 273 on the rudder does not match the official ID information for victory #35. Also the seller seems to claim that MvR is in one of the photos but he does not want to publish the image. Having seen enough misidentified pictures, I would definitely want to see that one to be certain of who is in it if I were going to place a bid.

ebay MvR foto

FliegerJG1

Gregvan · 22 April 2008, 05:21 PM

Hi FliegerJGI,

This photo has been published a few times. Nieuport 17 A.273
was assigned to No. 60 Squadron. On 30 March 1917 it was lost in action near Fresnoy on an offensive patrol which took off at 10.55 hrs. Lt. W.P. Garnett, the pilot, was killed and is seen in the photo. This victory is traditionally (and substantially) ascribed to Ltn.

Kurt Wolff of Jasta 11 (his 4th). According to Norman Franks and Hal Giblin's book, "Under the Guns of the Kaiser's Aces,": "Despite subsequent reports to the contrary, he was not brought down by

Manfred von Richthofen but by the maestro's protege, Kurt Wolff."

Garnett was making his first serious combat flight - he had only done training flights behind the lines up to that point.

This isn't the first time I've seen a contemporary caption on the back of a photo which mistakenly ascribes a downed machine to a famous ace such as Boelcke, Immelmann or MvR. Just because it's a contemporary caption, doesn't mean it's correct. The caption writer probably heard the Nieuport was shot down by an aircraft of the Richthofen Staffel and made a leap of faith, etc.

So it's not one of MvR's victims but still a historic photo tied to Jasta 11.

Greg

FliegerJG1 · 22 April 2008, 07:39 PM

Greg,

Thanks for weighing in here with the very nice explanation of the photos. If I recall correctly, a relative of Garnett was interviewed in a documentary on Richthofen. Garnett had been married just before leaving for the front. After he was KIA, Richthofen returned his personal effects with a note testifying that he flew with much courage and skill. Another one of those heartbreaking stories of war.

FliegerJG1

frontflieger · 25 April 2008, 11:34 AM

Hi,

the handwritten text says:

"Der 35. Luftsieg des Frhr. von Richthofen
bei Gavrelle (Arrasfront)
der Abschuss erfolgt vormittags zwischen
10 und 11 Uhr [...] 600 m
nördlich Gavrelle [...]"

35th aerial victory of Freiherr von Richthofen
near Gavrelle (Arras-Front)
the aerial victory took place at the morning
between 10 and 11 o'clock ... 600 Meters
north of Gravrelle...

(sorry, I can not read all text

thorsten

Bulldog90 · 26 April 2008, 11:51 AM

I wrote to the seller who answered back, saying basically he was relying on the caption for saying it was a MvR victory, and he acknowledged that that soldier could have been wrong.

Bulldog 90

J.R. · 26 April 2008, 12:49 PM

Greg,

Was this plane part of the well known 60 squadron flight that "disappeared" after a fight with Jasta 11 as no one from the flight returned?

J.R.

Jenny · 15 May 2008, 09:24 AM

Please tell me about this. Sounds fascinating.

Graeme · 16 May 2008, 11:49 AM

J.R.

The simple answer is "No". 60 Sqn lost two men on 30 March 1917, Garnett to

Kurt Wolff at 10:55 and 2nd Lt F Bower some 50 minutes later; Bower died of his wounds the following day.

The incident to which you refer took place on 14 April when 60 Sqn lost four Nieuports to Jasta 11 - Capt A Binnie MC (Pow), Lt W O Russell (Pow), 2nd Lt L C Chapman (Pow; Dow 16-Apl-17) and 2nd Lt J H Cock (Kia).

Graeme