Joseph Jacobs 450/17

Cigogne · 20 March 2006, 04:21 PM

Stephen,

If you look closely at the shot showing where the granat splinter hit the propeller... if you look further along the fuselage, you can see the outline of the "God of the North Wind" insignia. It is not detailed like the other known shot of it, but, it is there.

josef scott · 20 March 2006, 04:28 PM

I've been going over what pics i have of Jacobs' tripes and came up with a question of my own. The first pic posted is, I believe, a detail of the photo referenced by FritzKempf. Note the Oberursel, PlM (awarded July 21), and, apparently, a light-painted cowling face! At first I thought it was a trick of the light or reflection, but check out the second photo - same thing! A hard colour demacation just at the top curve of the cowl.

Now, as to the "god of the northwind" tripe, I was under the understanding that there was only one known photo of this plane in this scheme. The crosses have super-thick borders, indicating to me that the original eisernes kreuz markings have just been painted over. There are also Albatros DVs in the background, which would seem to point to an early 1918 date (or at least earlier than the photo posted of the DVII line-up). It also looks to have a Camel-style prop.

I remember reading another thread which detailed a lot of Jacobs combat reports with descriptions of the machines he was using. I'll try to find and post it.

josef scott · 20 March 2006, 04:32 PM

Cigogne,

Where could one find this photo? I'm not sure if I have it or not. Could it be posted?

StephenLawson · 20 March 2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigogne

Stephen,

If you look closely at the shot showing where the granat splinter hit the propeller... if you look further along the fuselage, you can see the outline of the "God of the North Wind" insignia. It is not detailed like the other known shot of it, but, it is there.

Yes the subject of the thread is 450/17 I maintane that both Dr.I types used by Jacobs used the Clerget.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenLawson post #9

At one time yes it was using a Clerget. There is a image of this machine with a bullet hole in the prop as a matter of fact.

Kerry Brenstuhl · 20 March 2006, 04:44 PM

I'm glad to see that my posting has started a very spirited discussion(debate?) over JJ's aircraft. I have learned a couple of valuable lessons here. Get as much information as possible on your subject and ask questions on the 'drome.

StephenLawson · 20 March 2006, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josef scott

I've been going over what pics i have of Jacobs' tripes and came up with a question of my own. The first pic posted is, I believe, a detail of the photo referenced by FritzKempf. Note the Oberursel, PlM (awarded July 21), and, apparently, a light-painted cowling face! At first I thought it was a trick of the light or reflection, but check out the second photo - same thing! A hard colour demacation just at the top curve of the cowl.

No it is a solid colour. The surfaces change because it is a cowling with a separate second face piece. It is a separate piece (with the cooling holes ) that is welded in place. Some were riveted. The first image is 450/17.

Quote:

Originally Posted by josef scott

Now, as to the "god of the northwind" tripe, I was under the understanding that there was only one known photo of this plane in this scheme. The crosses have super-thick borders, indicating to me that the original eisernes kreuz markings have just been painted over. There are also Albatros DVs in the background, which would seem to point to an early 1918 date (or at least earlier than the photo posted of the DVII line-up). It also looks to have a Camel-style prop.

"The god of the northwind" was applied first to 450/17. Then later after Oct. 3, 1918 it was applied to 470/17. There are at least three image of 450/17 in the markings you describe. Yes 450/17 was known to have been painted all-black by March 1918. Note the references I listed in post #14 here.

By the way the second image posted is 470/17 immediately AFTER the crash of 450/17 on Oct. 3, 1918.

Quote:

Originally Posted by josef scott

I remember reading another thread which detailed a lot of Jacobs combat reports with descriptions of the machines he was using. I'll try to find and post it.

It was my postings in the Aircraft title.

Fritz Kempf · 22 March 2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

A. The black one with the white crosses Dr.I is freshly painted.

I would agree with this.

Quote:

B. While the black on the second triplane is older and poorer quality on the left side (where the exhaust exited.)

All triplanes exit exhaust out the same side and they all have white on that side, so this would seem to be the only example of a lazy good for nothing mechanic? What mechanic would let there leaders plane get that dirty?

I would be interested in what evidence backs up this statement.

Quote:

D. 470/17 was not used by Jacobs until about June 1918.

Why wouldn’t this account for a freshly painted 470/17 sitting on the flight line with unfinished crosses?

Quote:

Fritz Kempf; 450/17 did not have the thin borders

If the white cross only plane is 450/17 than once the paint job was finished wouldn’t it have had thin borders? Also the white cross only plane has the fuselage cross way forward of it normal position, are there other pictures of this paint job once it was finished?

Quote:

But as a young man we find that in his war diary he took the barograph reading charts for his flight and glued them to next to the relavent diary entry. What we did not know until I researched the diary for its publication.....

I am familiar with this practice of his; so when is this diary coming out, I have been hearing about it for while now and would love to read it?

Thanks for your information on this, I know that as old collectors die that new information becomes available, and you can’t put to much trust in older books.

Josef scott
The first picture is the one I mentioned earlier, its just missing the Gray Hound.

Ed

StephenLawson · 22 March 2006, 04:54 PM

Fritz Kempf; I have tried to explain this to you and have provided references. The diary has been out for 12 years.

Cross & Cockade Intl.
25 #2 1994 “Jasta 7 under Kobes Pt.I”
25 #3 1994 “Jasta 7 under Kobes Pt.II”
27 #2 1996 “Kobes in FFA 11"
29 #2 1998 “Sketches and Descriptions-Kobes”

Over the Front
7 #4 1992 “Kobes in Jasta 22"
9 #4 1994 “Kobes in Fosta W.

The diary is published and the original is in my care as archivist of the Lafayette Foundation. I have also translated the existing combat reports in Jacobs own schrift. Since you don't even know the date that the line up was taken I can understand your frustration. I will leave it to you to find your own answers. Good luck.

Fritz Kempf · 22 March 2006, 05:16 PM

Stephen
I’m sorry I don’t get cross & Cockade nor Over the Front so I don’t have a problem with taking your word for it . Although I still cannot believe that the dark side was caused by the exhaust. Unless there's a diary entry with Jacobs cursing his mechanic and planning to have him flogged…LoL…

As for the diary I take it that its published in these periodicals you have mentioned; is it in all or just the part I and II of C&C?

Thanks for the clarification.

Ed

Laspalmas · 24 March 2006, 08:56 AM

Sorry to interrupt this spirited discussion guys but I just wanted to congratulate Kerry on his outstanding build of this aircraft! Everytime I think I have done some decent work on a kit, I see something like this and want to hide in shame

I know we all have our specific styles and talents but wow, that is amazing work on a 1:72 scale! Something for me to aspire to. Bravo!