Decal Problems

Derekjohnhowl · 18 February 2009, 04:38 AM

Hi All at the Aerdrome,

I’m relatively new at modelling, and have previously had little problem with decals – I use Microsol and Microset.

But I've just hit big problems with the decals for two Roden 1/48 Sopwith 1½ Strutters. I had a top roundel disintegrate completely in water, and even after a good coating of decal film the tailfin decals were too fragile to place. Now even I can paint the tailfin (do others do that anyway?) - but roundels are beyond me, let alone more complex insignia. Then, on the other model, the decals are thick and keep curling away however many treatments of Microsol I use.

So:
Are Roden decals usually more fragile (or thicker) than the Eduard ones I'm more used to?
Are there common beginners mistakes I might be making?
Are there any supplier of alternative suitable decals especially insignia)?
Any other advice?

While I'm here, another worry I've been having: Many of the pictures I see of completed models (mostly not on this site) have obviously too thick rigging. How thick were the flying/standing/control wires on the real thing? Then I can scale down. At the moment I use 0.08mm monofibre - looks good but is it too fine?

Keep up the great work.

derekjohnhowl

Ocsi · 18 February 2009, 07:46 AM

Me lucky guy had only once a problem with Roden decals. But I never used Set or Sol for the decals. But I use vinagery essence to soften the decals. Further I let float them on water. Keeping them floating even on the targetsurface I can place the decals right without forcing. Then I remove the water gently with a tissue.

Of course there is a disadvantage in this method. You will remove the glue from the backside of the decals letting them float. An idea from the internet is to use PVA solution on the surface, but I didn't tested it yet.

About rigging, I don't know. I'm a 72 builder and it's always oversized!

/Öcsi

Doug Baumann · 18 February 2009, 08:15 AM

well i don't know about Rodens decals . i here that they are nasty

yes pant it if you can

as for rigging i am weird

i use wire, fine wire, 32 gage for 1/36 scale .you must pull it first,cut off the wire wrap both ends around model paint brushes and pull you will feel it pull longer this dose 2 things 1 it make the wire stiff and strait 2 it makes it smaller and you dont have to paint it . use supper glue to glue it to the model after you cut it to length. i hope this will help

Doug

Lodzermensch · 18 February 2009, 12:19 PM

Hello Derekjohnhowl and welcome,

As for Roden’s decals. When I built Roden’s Fokker, I had no problems with decals. However, I did not use products such as microsol and microset. In many cases, they can destroy decals. By the way – if you think Roden’s decals are fragile, try these from Blue Max.

From my experience I can recommend two solutions to your problem with decals.
1. Try to use product, which is known as Future Floor – for PVC floor. Apply a thin layer of it on the painted model. After drying – apply decals. Then overlay them with another layer of Future or transparent lacquer.
2. I read somewhere, that it is a good way to add a small amount of white glue to the water in which the decals will be inserted. I have not tried this, but I saw results. The problem is – I’m not sure what white glue is. We do not use such a name for any kind of glue, in Polish. I guess that this may be the woodworking glue because it is white and dissolved in water.

As for rigging. I think that monofilament ( fishing line ) 0,08 – if it is in millimeters, will be fine in quarter scale, especially after the painting.

Greetings

Marek

Derekjohnhowl · 18 February 2009, 12:47 PM

A thousand thanks.

Yet again the Aerodrome forum takes you into new areas of brilliance.

Now as to what I'll do...

derekjohnhowl

Grapeape · 18 February 2009, 03:13 PM

My father and I are currently building our Roden 1/32 Pfalz D.III, and are nervously anticipating using the decals - especially since there are no aftermarket ones avilable

But his technique is as above, first an airbrushed coat of Future (also known as Johnson's Klear in Europe) then the decals, then a second coat of Future. And that always seems to work, no matter which decal maker/kit company.

I managed to acquire several rolls of different diameters of Japanese Dai-Riki fishing line through HobbyLink Japan Home Page (Hobbylink Japan) and this stuff is fantastic! Extremely tough and durable, and no out of scale "fuzzies". I'd recommend grabbing some from anywhere, if you can!

Rowan Broadbent · 18 February 2009, 04:31 PM

On the decal front ihave used decals onto wet brushed on Klear (Future - same thing) which acts as an adhesive and then another coat on top seals the decal in place. You need to work quickly, though, as future dries quite quickly. I'd suggest practice with scrap decal on a scrap model first. If the decal breaks up then there is no solution apart from another decal!

The line you're using in 48th scale equates to nearly 4mm full size. It's what I use for earlier, lightly built machines or for control lines, which were generally thinner than rigging wires. If you are building an aircraft which had flat rafwires the 4mm is about right for the "head on" view, but not really thick enough when looking down on it. In 48th scale treating the line with a black permanent marker before fitting it makes it more visible and therefore tricks the eye into thinking its slightly thicker - well it works for me!

HHaase · 19 February 2009, 09:09 AM

Decals disentegrating like that can be a serious pain. Usually it's a case of old decals that have sat around too long, particularly if they aren't in sealed bags and the humidity is low. Sometimes you can save them with a coating of the spray used for Testors decal paper. Microscale also makes a liquid decal film that does the same. But of course, you usually don't know you need to do anything until the decal is already ruined. It also sounds like you may have tried this already.

I recently had a decal set for an airliner go bad in the same way. Just dipping it in water caused it to crumble into little crumbs. Unfortunately it was a build for a friend of mine, and a very hard to get set of decals. I'm hoping I can duplicate them with Papilio laser paper, I don't care for inkjet custom decals.

Worst case, I know there are companies that do WWI decal sets of roundels. Americal Gryphon comes to mind. I believe Eduard also has mask sets for painting roundels. You could also try contacting Roden for a replacement set.

And like mentioned above, I use Future constantly for all my builds. It makes an excellent base for decals to adhere to as well as sealing them to the kit after being applied.

Marek: I believe that what we call "White Glue" is what is called PVA glue in Europe. Here in the USA, our woodworking glues are a tan color, but are otherwise the same as White Glue. The common brand here is Elmer's.

WarrenD · 19 February 2009, 03:44 PM

Grape Ape,
My U.S. source for Dai-Riki has dried up. I have shopped with HLJ for a long time, but never knew that they carried Dai-Riki. I did a search, and could not find it. Could you send me the link to where it is in their online listing? Thanks!

Warren

WarrenD · 19 February 2009, 03:46 PM

HHase,
Americal-Gryphon is long gone, so that isn't a source for roundels anymore. Freightdog models in the UK have taken over the Pegasus line, and they have re-released the RFC/RAF roundels and serials. Maybe they will redo the other nationalities roundels as well? (Although, A-G had a better selection of sizes on their sheets.)

Warren