Hues of American cockades and rudder stripes

Hi All:

I'm the new kid in town, and have not had time to check all the previous threads. Perhaps this has been discussed, and if so, please direct me to the proper answer.

Is there any historical consensus regarding the most proper shade (or hue) of red and blue used on AEF aircraft? I am very familiar with the work done by PROJECT BUTTERFLY thirty years ago, but it seems the decal makers can never agree on the shades of red or blue, and frankly, I have several models of SPADs and other American aircraft that I do not want to spoil with a bad decal job.

Decal manufacturers disagree about whether the blue is navy, deep royal, "French" (light Prussian), or some middling shade in between.And the red seems to be either scarlet, orange, red or deep red. Have they read something I haven't or have some of them printed before reading much at all?

I believe that British-manufactured aircraft (SE5a, Camel) had the usual British cockades of red and ultramarine, clearly different from French blues. But what about the hues on DH-4s manufactured by Dayton Wright or Fisher?

Were different hues of blue and red used by Squadron mechanics as they became better organized and supplied?

These questions may be a job for Greg Van W or Dan San Abbott but I am sure others are also knowledgeable. What do the existing fabric samples show? French blue? British Ultramarine? Scarlet, Deep red?

The brand new 1/48 SPAD 7 and 13 decals put out by Aero Master are nice and crisp, but in my opinion the blue is too dark. Other opinions? Facts?

How is it that the 94th used *yellow* numbers shaded red in October 1918 (Hamilton Cooledge's #22)? Where is the published source for that?

Cordially yours,
Stephen Gilbert

[StephenLawson]

Spadlover:

Greetings and welcome to the forum. *As you are familiar with Project Butterfly, *You will be familiar with the name of Mr. Alan Toelle (God bless him.) *He is still with us as Messers Hardesty & Hastings have gone west.

Noteably the American cockards were all originally painted at the manufacturer's. *Some were painted per contract with American sequence Cockards. *Supplimental batches were painted with French Cockards and tail stripes when delivered.

Upon arrival at frontline AEF units wing Cockards were often repainted almost immediately. This depended on the general activity at the time. *Some American Spads maintained their rudder stripes in the French sequence. Examples would be #17 & 19 (15006) of the 94th.

Hues of colour used on these aircraft were usually French or American *contract stipulated. Also the colours used at the unit level for repainting were infact anything they could get their hands on.

You may be familiar with Lt. J. N. Jeffers 'Japanese Flag' Spad XIII showbird of the 94th Aero sqdn in 1919 ? At the Lafayette Foundation we have a section of Lt. Huffers aircraft. *Verified by Mr. Toelle. The Blue used here is a bright medium blue.

Hi Stephen the First:
Thanks for the quick response regarding colors/hues.

What I was pushing for was confirmation that the AEF utilized *dark blue* for the middle circle of their cockades on a regular basis.

Thanks for the information about existing fabric from Lt. Jeffer's (you called him "Huffer") SPAD 13 "Japanese flag." Was the fabric sample from the fuselage or was it a cockade as well?
From (othochrome?) photographed tonal qualities of surfaces at equivalent angles, it would seem all of the 94th's March 1919 "Show Birds" used a bright medium to light blue dope - witness the tail and nose surfaces and middle cockade rings of Captain Reed Chamber's/Major Maxwell Kirby's Kellner-built SPAD 13 S.16546 "American Flag".

Thanks also for the serial of #19 of the 94th Aero - is this from a fabric sample? Did Bleriot build the entire S.15000-15099 block?

I knew that some SPADS were delivered in July with French cockades, especially to the 95th Aero - there was confusion over Lt Walter L. Avery's Kellner-built SPAD S.4512 #18, which had only been with the 1st Pursuit Group for four days and Avery's "B" flight in the 95th for only two days when he downed Jasta 72's Karl Meckhoff on 25 July . Lt Ira "Rabbit" Curry's 10 August 1918 crash shows French cockades on the upper wing of what may have been Bernard-built S.7969, #15. What I don't know is the extent to which cockade overpainting was done in each Aero squadron.

Oddly enough, about 30 minutes after posting this thread last night I found some of Alan Toelle's published notes in Volume 2 (1961) of the Cross & Cockade USA on the (supposedly) unrestored "Smith IV" #20 of the 22nd Aero Squadron, dated @1960. The cockade circles were red and *dark blue* but the rudder stripes were *French blue* and red! Which is original? Rudders are worn out more often than entire wings, but "Smith IV" had been tinkered with before in the 1920's, especially in the tail area. I don't know enough about "Smith IV's" particular history (the NASM did not do a restoration book about it in the same manner as their other WWI planes) to know how atypical it is. How common were Marlin gunned-SPADs like "Smith IV" in the Aero squadrons? I know of only one other, L.G.Holden's, in the 95th Aero.

Is Alan D. Toelle on this List?

[StephenLawson]

What I was pushing for was confirmation that the AEF utilized *dark blue* for the middle circle of their cockades on a regular basis.

Personally I would say not on a regular basis

Originally Posted by author

Thanks for the information about existing fabric from Lt. Jeffer's (you called him "Huffer") SPAD 13 "Japanese flag." Was the fabric sample from the fuselage or was it a cockade as well?

After I posted the reply I re-read it and saw my faux paux and replaced it with the correct spelling. :-[ It is the hat-n-the Ring insignia for the port side.

Originally Posted by author

Thanks also for the serial of #19 of the 94th Aero - is this from a fabric sample?

The info comes from the personal diary of Lt. Joseph Eastman the pilot of #19 S.15009. As a side note this machine was in for repairs 50.7% of its service carreer.

[quote=author]...What I don't know is the extent to which cockade overpainting was done in each Aero squadron.[QUOTE]

Again it depended on the;
1.) availability of paint needed,
2.) & sqdn activity at the time.
It does appear to be the order of the day for front line units to meet uniform reqirements according to upper eschelon mandates.

Originally Posted by author

How common were Marlin gunned-SPADs like "Smith IV" in the Aero squadrons? I know of only one other, L.G.Holden's, in the 95th Aero.

It is my understanding that Marlins were used on a limited basis. These were to supplant the shortage of Vickers.

Originally Posted by author

Is Alan D. Toelle on this List?

I have encouraged him to join.