Aerodrome Red Baron Animation

[backusstudio]

Originally Posted by TomVrille

I will be happy to cheerlead and offer criticism. You will have to decide how constructive the criticism may be.

I'm assuming that since my desire is to promote our hobby and information about our heros from the Great War that people will be helpful and kind in their critiques of my work. I claim to know very little for certain about the details but I have great enthusiasm for the subject.

Originally Posted by TomVrille

I love the idea of modeling the MvR/Hawker engagement, since this engagement is still used today as representative of what is now known as "Close-in-Combat", or CIC.

It looks like that is the first engagement I'll be animating.

Originally Posted by TomVrille

There is one small problem. The full MvR/Hawker engagement lasted longer than your proposed 3-minute simulation.

How long do you think the actual engagement lasted? The two obvious options are to either extend the animation or edit the engagement. I lean towards extending the animation unless they circled and looped for half an hour or more.

Originally Posted by TomVrille

That said, Rah Rah Rah, on with the show!!

Thanks Tom! I run on enthusiasm.

[dglewwe]

re: MvR v Hawker
How long do you think the actual engagement lasted?

OtF, v.21, #2: "Eight Minutes Near Bapaume"



as a neophite bystander, all i can do is wave/applaud energetically at the work being discussed here.

as a model builder/game designer, i eagerly look forward to any recreation of the era/aircraft.

[TomVrille]

Originally Posted by dglewwe

re: MvR v Hawker
How long do you think the actual engagement lasted?
OtF, v.21, #2: "Eight Minutes Near Bapaume"

dglewwe... Thanks for that reference! The Over the Front article is a great starting point for the proposed simulation, since it provides a timeline analysis of the MvR/Hawker engagement, including discussion of essential parameters such as bank angles, firing rates, etc., all of which must be taken into account in an engagement simulation model. Most pertinent is the so-called 50/5 model whch estimates an engagement time of approximately 8 minutes. In view of the time and effort that will be required to complete the proposed simulation, I would say this article is required reading, to get a better feel for the scope of the planned project. While there is some uncertainty associated with the analytical timeline, it is close enough to allow a reasonable estimate of how long the project will require.

Note also that the article includes a photo showing the appearance of MvR's Albatros D.II around the time of the engagement.

[backusstudio]

I've only been receiving OTF since I joined the League at last year's Dayton meet. I'll have to contact them for a back issue on v. 21, #2. Great tip, dglewwe, thanks!

Eight minutes must have seemed like an eternity to those two men in that kind of a kill-or-be-killed situation. After creating an animation of those eight minutes I may have a better understanding of how long eight minutes can be than any living person!

It appears that MvR's DII will be the potentially controversial aircraft. Hawker's DH2 shows up the same in photo after photo and painting after painting. There are some subtle color variations in the paintings but that's about it. MvR's DII may or may not have had a white nose ring around the forward engine cowl, may or may not have had a raw metal prop spinner with grey painted engine cowl, may have been either number 491/16 or 481/16, and may have had the upper wings painted in either dark olive, chestnut and brown, dark olive, chestnut and lavender, or just chestnut and dark olive. The rudder shows as a medium dark color in photos but could have likely been either brown, chestnut or dark olive. Great.

[CORVUS]

I'm not sure this is any help, but there is a forum that discusses color schemes. If you haven't been there you might try and get some clarification. Although it might make things worse. In that case throw caution to the wind and go with your gutt feeling.

Lou

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

The Hawker/Richthofen duel is a great choice - though it has already been done (in a fashion) as part of the "Man, Moment, Machines" segment on Richthofen on the History Channel. They did an OK job on the animation, though they chose to show the DH 2 going down flaming/smoking.

In my book "Jagdstaffel 2 Boelcke", we showed Richthofen's D.II as having the white cowl ring, a white spinner, and the tentative serial 481/16; the rudder is clear-doped fabric. These details remain tentative. I don't think you'll get any argument that the wings and tailplane were in fact dark and light green and chestnut brown. No way lavender or mauve enters into the scheme. The three-tone camouflage is pretty well confirmed by contemporary reports and agreed upon by us color nuts.

If I can be of any help in the colors and markings dept., just let me know - I'm sure Dan-San would pitch in too. Personally, I'd prefer to see an engagement from "Bloody April" 1917, when Richthofen was flying his red-fuselaged Albatros D.III and shooting down dozens of BE 2's, etc. It was that period, and that aircraft, that made "der Rote Kampfflieger". But that's just my opinion.

Very best regards,

Greg VanWyngarden

[David_Layton]

What would be very good is to have the camera position rotate between opponents as well as having it float outside the fight.

[backusstudio]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi All,

The Hawker/Richthofen duel is a great choice - though it has already been done (in a fashion) as part of the "Man, Moment, Machines" segment on Richthofen on the History Channel. They did an OK job on the animation, though they chose to show the DH 2 going down flaming/smoking.

Hi Greg-

Thanks for weighing in! I have your excellent book Albatros Aces of WW1 (Part 2). I will certainly lean on your expertise to get the details correct.

I'm a bit disappointed to hear that this has already been animated. But as the most famous victim of the most famous ace of WW1, I guess it makes sense. I can at least right the wrong of having Hawker go down in flames.

Originally Posted by Gregvan

In my book "Jagdstaffel 2 Boelcke", we showed Richthofen's D.II as having the white cowl ring, a white spinner, and the tentative serial 481/16; the rudder is clear-doped fabric. These details remain tentative. I don't think you'll get any argument that the wings and tailplane were in fact dark and light green and chestnut brown. No way lavender or mauve enters into the scheme. The three-tone camouflage is pretty well confirmed by contemporary reports and agreed upon by us color nuts.

Unfortunately I do not have Jagdstaffel 2 Boelcke and so do not have the profile you're referencing. Back to Byrd's Aviation Books....

I think I'll go ahead and do a flat 3 view showing what I think I know now. It may be easier for you that have the knowledge to correct than to describe.

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Personally, I'd prefer to see an engagement from "Bloody April" 1917, when Richthofen was flying his red-fuselaged Albatros D.III and shooting down dozens of BE 2's, etc. It was that period, and that aircraft, that made "der Rote Kampfflieger". But that's just my opinion.

I certainly agree about April 1917. MvR was reaching the height of his fame at that time. The aspect of the Hawker fight that I find so appealing was that it was the kind of contest he normally avoided. He could just as easily have been killed as Hawker. It counters the notion of MvR as purely an opportunist who swooped out of the clouds or sun for a quick easy kill on an observation plane.

And there will hopefully be time to do that next.

Thanks for your help, Greg.

[Ronny Bar]

Hi Michael...

Just to say that I support the Richthofen vs. Hawker engagement... I guess it's one of the most epic air battles of all times... Sure Greg's suggestion about "Bloddy April" is quite an exciting option too...

Unfortunately I know nothing about CGI animations, but if it's of any use I could contribute some profiles of the planes involved...

Best regards...

Ronny

[rainbase]

Originally Posted by backusstudio

Eight minutes must have seemed like an eternity to those two men in that kind of a kill-or-be-killed situation.

If I may offer my opinion, eight minutes would be awfully long for a proposed film like this. The bulk of the time it's mostly the two planes locked in a circle and losing altitude, right?

Myself, if I were directing this I'd scrap the "real time" concept and present it more cinematically. There are tricks to show the passage of time. You can get a lot of mileage out of fades. What I would do is figure out the best way to show the essence of that battle. You needn't sacrifice any historical accuracy to do that.

Film is, after all illusion, not a recreation. Decide what the essential elements are to illustrate the story you want to tell. I love looking at GW stuff, but at eight minutes I'd find myself fast forwarding to move it along. Again, it's just my opinion but I would think you could do this fabulously well in... oh, say no more than three minutes. Pack all the imagery you want to present into those three minutes. Make it all "money shots" and you should be able to knock the viewers eyes out.