"Problems" with collection from Crocow.

[peteroz]

Salut!
As You know in Cracow we have a Aviation Museum. There is also a such a big collection of Wolrd War I machines. Many specialists from many countries had worked and helped during the restora-tion. Thanks for THEM!

Unfortunately, since 1990. and especially since 2005 there is a big problem and confilct. German goverment (or German groups of politics) affirm that all machines from crocow's museum belong to Goering, now to all of German. Magnificent collection belongs to Goering before Wold War II. During War he added to his collection other plane (from subjugates country).
In fact, in 1945 (when to Berlin went Red Army) Germans conveyed Goering's collection to Piła (Pila-Schneidemühl). During War Wolrd II Pila was a German city. After war, in 1946 Pila became again a Polish city (as before war).
In 1960. (1963) many experts from Poland, USA and many other countries made a huge work during restoration. Now, German want to "recover" their collection. In Poland (and on Polish forums) this rhetoric is of course laughed.

What is Your opinion Gentlemen?

[Sreiko]

There is no opinion at all!! As I know all what belong to any Nazi have lost their ownership and even copyright! Goering also owned a great number of the original oil painting and all this material is gone to the new owner. He was a criminal!!!

This is part of the some new pressure- this material become trade material and some person use politic influence to get some of thing which they lost. Worst situation is in Russia as I hear. They have real problem to keep their treasure as well a lot of material is exported under unclear circumstances.

Before WW2 there was a lot of German in my country. There was very loyal but in general they become in war Folksdeutcher- local Germans in the German units. Many of crimes was made. In the last days of WW2 they are retreat from my country. All their land and property become property of state and they as well belonged to the enemy formation are nationalized. No way back. One detail- among the "refuges" was German future cancelar Genscher. He was born here and as kid was forced to leave his homeland Serbia. This is maybe one of reason of German negative policy against my country.

So- don't give anything to anybody and keep all in Poland. You have suffer damn badly in WW2 and no one have rights to touch you.

P.S. nothing personal- I have friends and family and Germany and I really like them. Germans are actually very nice people. We all are suffer from the politics..

[Patrick]

Wow! Talk about flame-war potential!

Call me an idealist, but I like to believe that museum artifacts like these old airplanes really belong to no one, but are cared for by institutions so they can be preserved and passed on to future generations. Whenever someone, or some group, wants to make an argument that physical possession of a well cared-for artifact should be returned to them, in my opinion they've got a much bigger burden of proof to make their case legitimate than is covered by pointing out that someone affiliated with them once owned the object.

Cases like this that involve Germany and Poland are especially contentious because it's impossible to ignore their long (ancient, really) history of diplomatic assaults, mutual mistrust and hatred, and outright warfare. I recall an interesting article in the Atlantic magazine, published during the 1990s, where a writer described traveling by train from Germany to Poland. On the wall of a German train station was a route map that included all of territory in western Poland that Stalin carved from Germany at the end of the war, and gave to the Poles so he could incorporate their eastern lands into Russia; he essentially moved the whole Polish state 200 miles west, at Germany's expense. On the train route map, Germany's eastern border was a barely-visible light-blue line, and all of the towns and cities were labeled with their old German names (Breslau, not Wrocław, Stettin, not Szczecin, etc.).

There will probably always be a faction inside Germany who believes that Poland is wrongfully holding German properties, whether those be old airplanes or entire cities. I don't believe that this is the view of most Germans, just a vocal minority who draw attention to themselves with tales of the awful victimization they've suffered and continue to suffer at the hands of the Poles. Well, too bad. Those airplanes, and lands and cities, came into Poland's possession as the spoils of war, and any previous ownership ended when the treaties were signed and the armies went home. As for the planes being Goering's, that to me is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard on this topic. Fat Hermann himself had a long ugly history of extorting and stealing anything he desired for his collections; legal claims of his ownership of anything have a distinctly hollow ring to them. That someone would seriously try to make a case for Goering's previous possession as the basis of current rightful ownership by the German nation is laughable -- and if that's Poland's response, it's the correct one for sure.

It would be far better for everyone if, instead of contesting physical possession, Germans and Poles worked together to conserve the old airplanes. When enough trust developed between them, it would be possible to make loans between the two country's museums so that a wider audience could see these artifacts. They are part of a common heritage shared by the two nations and should not be thought-of as someone's property. It's a shame that this kind of political nonsense goes on, always driven by the same idiots who think they will gain by stirring up hatred and bad memories.

[Taz]

peteroz- After WW-II, Poland reclaimed all the lands confiscated by the Germans and was awarded some parts of Germany which were of mixed German and Polish ethnicity. As far as I am concerned, everything in those areas now belongs to Poland. Unless there was stolen property (artwork) where ownership can be traced, it all belongs to Poland. Your country paid for it in blood and the international community should make sure you keep it.

I doubt you will be invaded over museum pieces and the EU should ensure no other nation attempts to "recover" items by applying economic pressure. The effort is just as laughable as if someone were attempting to recover buildings from Polish soil.

Stand fast and continue laughing at efforts to "recover" the museum displays.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Jim]

It is a basic legal issue that is buried under a thick layer of politics and emotions that make it difficult to see the underlying legal issue. These kinds of repatriation of cultural artifacts law suits are happening all over the world with increasing regularity, especially in the past 10 years or so. The concept is that countries have what are called cultural patrimonies that have been scattered around the world through various actions such as war, questionable or shady deals, thefts, etc. Those countries are saying that historical cultural artifacts, no matter how they were acquired by another individual or country legally belong to the home country and should be returned. One of the best known cases of this is the Elgin Marbles which include most of the original marble carvings and statues from the Parthenon, Acropolis, and other important classical buildings in Greece. They were removed from these buildings in the early 1800s by Lord Elgin (the British Ambassador at that time) and sent back to the UK where they still reside in the British Museum. The Greek government has asked for them back but the British are refusing saying the their Ambassador back then had received permission from the Ottoman Empire who controlled Greece back then to remove these and take them away. One of the argurments the UK presents as a reason not to return them is they say these priceless artefacts would have been destroyed or stolen over the years if they had not removed them and preserved them in a special part of the British Museum that they built just for these carvings and statues.

There are thousands of cases where one government is demanding the return of cultural artifacts from another government.

I do not know any of the details of the situation of the German WW I aircraft in Cracow, but the argument that they belonged to Goering and that since Goering was a criminal who likely came to own the aircraft illegally would strengthen the German government's claim on the Polish government to return them. If I were the attorney for the German government I would argue that Goering came to possess them illegally and so they must be returned to their rightful owners from whom Goering took them. It would be the same argument if I were representing a private family who was seeking to recover an old painting that was illegally taken or forcefully purchased by Goering from its rightful owners who were the ancestors of the family I represented and to whom the painting should be returned.

[Romani]

The laughter must have been heard as far away as Moscow!

My objective and impartial assessment (regardless of my Germanophilia)


The matter is simple and clear cut. Those aeroplanes among other things are legitimate war booty and compensation for what the Nazis did to Poland, Russia and other nations. Germany lost the war. Period. End of discussion.

If they want them back, they can offer to buy them for a fair price.

And off topic, but since it's mentioned, so Germany lost territory to Poland... I see it as a redress of previous partitions of Poland. Anyway, if memory serves right, one of the conditions for the reunification of Germany was to renounce to any claims to lost territory in the East.

[Garfield]

Hello Peteroz , can you tell me the names and the countries of this specialists who did help to restore this WW1 aircrafts ?

[peteroz]

Names- I don't know. I remember they come from USA (about 2 years ago I have spoken with one of them but now we have not got any contact and I don't know his name). I don't sure if only from USA.

Sreiko, Romani, Taz and Jim- now I'm reading and analyzing Your very interesting and precious posts. I will write answer for them tomorrow (european's tomorrow ). Sorry for small late but I have a lot of work now.

[Lyle]

I say the planes stay in Poland. However, they are hardly any kind of compensation for what happened during WW2.

[Garfield]

Can you find aut the names , from what countries , and what planes this people did help to restore ? I belive this people did take a lot of pictures from the restoration .