MiG Alley

[willycoppens]

Historical research suggests that a high percentage of the MiG 15 drivers encountered south of the Yalu River were in reality Soviet " advisors ". The kill ratio which once heavily favored the UN forces may be very wrong. Does anyone have statistics to support this theory? Thanks.

[Doc]

I'm not sure exactly what the question is--- the presence of Soviet pilots in those aircraft is pretty well proven, but the kill ratio was what it was, regardless of who was flying. Doc

[rammjaeger]

willycoppens,

many years ago I read about first research results of an US-American researcher who worked to create a more realistic picture of losses on both sides. Don´t know if he ever finished his work.

At least I bet "Proud Patriots" in all involved countries do not like this kind of research and to my knowledge Chinese and Koreans did not open their files until now. So, nobody can honestly claim "to know" the correct killratio. However, there is a lot more known about Russians in Korea today. If you google with some skill you can find quite a number of sources and even Russian homepages dealing with this topic.

Example:
Russian Aces of the Korean War - MiG-15 Pilots versus USAF F-86s

[rammjaeger]

Here you can read parts of another interesting source:
Red Wings Over the Yalu: China, the ... - Google Buchsuche

[willycoppens]

Many thanks for the interesting and useful information.

[willycoppens]

P.S. Osprey books published a new book on the subject last year. I believe the title is " Russian Aces of the Korean War ". Should be a good read. It is part of their " Aircraft of the Aces " series.

[steven brown]

I've read alot about this subject and it appears that the Soviets lost 345 migs and the Chinese and North Koreans together lost about 250. U N aircraft lost to Migs was somewhere around 150-170 with about 100-120 being F-86. Like most claims in history, none of this is definitive.

[Barrett]

The actual losses in Korean War aerial combat may never be known. If you track the historiography, the admitted losses of F-86s has risen over the decades, from 56 to 78 to more recently around 103. Two Sabre aces including a wing commander have told me that the USAF cooked the books: in many instances a battle-damaged Sabre that went down offshore was listed "cause unknown" or "operational." There apparently there have been reassessments, which likely accounts for the escalating total.

One thing to keep in mind about Soviet losses: the Stalinist system was seldom receptive to bad news. (A former MiG pilot told me in the 90s that HE didn't believe the Russian figures.) While MiG losses in Korea might have been higher than admitted, it'd take a huge amount of digging in archives to come up with a reasonably accurate number. And remember, not all losses were combat related.

[Sreiko]

I have list of Soviet air aces from Korea war published in Soviet magazine. Some time ago I have ry to trace one claim where is by some info downed Francis gabresky in P-80. Result was that it never happen as well documents are not proof that.

As I know top Soviet jet ace have 23 air claims in Korea. That was all part of Communist Internationalisam but this is another story.

[steven brown]

You're right Barret, we probably will never know the actual losses. The numbers I quoted earlier are the best estimates right now. They are air combat numbers and do not include other losses. By the way, thank you for your many books. We're lucky to have you.