aircraft identification needed

mekon · 18 December 2009, 03:25 AM

hi all. first time caller/long time listener etc

I found this mysterious and evocative image on the web. there is no other information accompanying it, and I have been racking my brain is to what the aircraft might be (pretty sure it isn't an airship). I'm no expert on fashion or uniforms, so don't think I can really estimate the date any more accurately than sometime between 1920 and 1940..?

Any information would be greatly appreciated. cheers

(p.s - I meant to call the thread "aircraft identification request - "needed" sounds too much like an order!)

YavorD · 18 December 2009, 03:40 AM

.. or early 1960s. One may look for Aérospatiale helicopters.
Regards,
Yavor

mekon · 18 December 2009, 07:41 AM

thanks Yavor - I think "helicopter" is the key word here..oops

Doc · 18 December 2009, 10:06 AM

I agree that we may be looking at a Helicopter photo here. That control the pilot is holding certainly looks like a 1960s or later helicopter cyclic. However, in a rapid review of my photos/books, I cannot find any helicopter with that windscreen pattern.

It looks like commercial use, rather than military, so perhaps we should look at what/who was flying helicopters in and out of Paris in the 1960s. Sabena of Belgium was one, but I don't think this is one of their S-55 or S-58 aircraft. Any other thoughts?

Fascinating photo, and I will be interested in seeing what others have to say about it.

Doc

mekon · 18 December 2009, 10:18 AM

the best candidate I have been able to find is the Sud-Aviacion SE.3200 / SA.3210 "Frelon", but - as Doc said - the windscreen pattern is different from any variants I could find..

Doc · 18 December 2009, 10:29 PM

Just a thought..... Are we sure this is a real photo? I can't put my finger on it, but somehow it has a "movie-ish" feel to it. The framing of the cockpit windows just looks more "mockup" than real to me (totally smooth, no screws, nuts, or rivets visible, curves of framing are possible but somehow just look wrong).... The lady's hat, gloves, outfit, and position appear more theatrical than I would expect in a commercial helicopter-period setting. She appears to almost be standing, rather than sitting in the left seat, which would imply either a very strange cockpit configuration or one without a left seat. If she is sitting, the back of the seat is very low, as it does not appear in the photo. I don't see any instruments on the left side-- were there any helicopters which had all their instruments on the right? I haven't seen any. I don't know, but it just feels wrong to me.

I may be totally off the track, and if so, obviously willing to be corrected. Doc

mekon · 19 December 2009, 05:58 AM

hey Doc,

an updated ID - from posting this elsewhere - is a Westland Widgeon, a British licensed-built version of the S-51 Dragonfly

it seems that very few were built, but they saw a lot of service in a lot of places worldwide.

but, I agree with your gut-feeling about the photo not feeling quite real. it would be hard to prove that a Widgeon was never flown over Paris, perhaps this is something from a movie - several seemed to have been used in films..

cheers

Doc · 19 December 2009, 06:24 AM

Yeah, the Westland Widgeon was one of the ones I thought of, since it is the only one I can find with that "V" in the windscreen. However, the rest of the windscreen does not look like the photo. The Widgeon does seem to have had only a single pilot, sitting on the right, but I have not found any illustrations of the passenger seating.

Arguing against that identification is that the Widgeon was only used (ever) by one commercial company, Bristow UK, and I have no evidence that they ever flew commercial passengers in France. They concentrated on military flight training and off-shore oil rig support efforts. All other sales were military. I have no information on civil use of ex-military Widgeons, though I would suspect it happened.

The Widgeon, though, was not, as you state, a license-built copy of the S-51 (which has a very different windscreen frame, and doesn't really match the photo). The Widgeon is a marriage of the body of the S-51, with modifications, with the rotor system of the Westland Whirlwind. Thus, still (sort of) built like an S-51 with some major modifications. The Westland license-built version of the S-51 was known as the WS-51 Dragonfly. Sabena did fly three of these on their Brussels-Paris Flights, but the Windscreen seems to rule out any of these being the aircraft in your photo.

I still think the photo looks like something from a movie, made from a mockup, rather than a real helicopter. On the other hand, there is a lot out there historically which we haven't discovered yet, so it may be some aircraft I just haven't run across.

Thanks for a great opportunity for some detective work. Doc

YavorD · 21 December 2009, 08:13 AM

It is Westland Widgeon, in my opinion. A fish-eye lens is, probably, used. It is hard to tell the exact circumstances (genuine in-flight picture or cockpit mock-up / collage).
Merry Christmas!
Yavor