Rhinebeck Museum trouble

[airknocker]

It would appear that Oswald has partaken of the Koolaid served up by the present ORA management. Those of us with a longer association with ORA realize the fallacy of that statement.

[NexStar7]

To quote Oswald-WHO, " In Coles day they could do anything they wanted & the shows were unsafe" You absolutely DO NOT know what you are talking about!!!! The track record of NEVER having a fatality under the direction of COLE PALEN is worthy of a standing ovation!!!! That cannot be said now, unfortunately. The old guard ALWAYS had pilot meetings before each & every show, they knew exactly what they were going to do before they did it - and that included emergency procedures. I know this for a fact because I was associated with ORA for five airshow seasons as ground crew staff on the Sunday WW1 shows. As a certified pilot I also flew Coles Great Lakes Biplane in the bombing raids and tagged along other countless times with BK, DK, and GDM in other bombing raids. I've flown with JB and KC countless other times too, and never ONCE did I have any doubt at all with my life in any of there hands! I've been a pilot for 31 years, own & fly an open cockpit fabric covered taildragger of late 1920's design that is based at a grass strip - so I have plenty of knowledge of the flying game, on the ground and from the cockpit.
I attended a WW1 show at ORA in July of this year as a spectator in the crowd, just observing. There are a few observations that raised my eyebrow that day. Before the show began, the Spad VII made a few flights around the patch for whatever reasons, but I did notice he took off downwind a couple of times. Hmmmm! During the show, the Dr-1 Tripe also tookoff downwind. When the Spad & Tripe were finished with the dogfight, the Spad proceeded to land first, and on rollout it groundlooped to its right and stopped in the middle of the strip-where the pilot(?) shut the a/c down. The red flag was immediately raised from the announcers tower to keep the Dr-1 in the air until the Spad was cleared off the runway. Before the Spad could start it engine and taxi clear, the Dr-1 was touching down and rolling out along side the Spad, obviously ignoring OR unaware of the impending danger that was close to being in his path!!!! In my humble opinion: NOT TOO SWIFT. I also would like to mention that I observed NO pilots meeting before the show anywhere on the field! Little mistakes - yes, but as any safe pilot knows, a chain of little mistakes leads to big ones... a.k.a. ACCIDENTS.
I've been to several shows since the "new guard" took over, just to observe. And to put it mildly they can't shine the shoes of attitude, safety & professionalism of airshow showmanship shown by us "old guard".
I am VERY sorry as to what happened to Mr. Nasta, I don't wish that on anyone. However, something went very very wrong that day, and from a purely saftey standpoint many questions need to be answered. The aerodrome has been in a graveyard spiral for a few years now. I think with this tragedy, it is VERY close to reaching a point of no recovery.
As for you, Oswald-WHO, you have much to learn about that "Palen Magic" that once ruled the skies over Old Rhinebeck. And on a smaller note: go somewhere and learn to spell!

[NexStar7]

What is a " URAL "?

[airknocker]

Methinks this is the Ural in question. Ural

[NexStar7]

For the ural tidbit airknocker - I remember Bob McKenzie (a.k.a. Mr. Brown/Siegel) driving this machine in the shows when I was there. Stupid me, I never knew what its name was - until now! Thanks again.

[Gwen]

Hi Oswald,

Thank you for expressing your opinion on this forum thread. Its obvious that you care very much about ORA. I can understand not wanting to read more than 4,600 postings, that could take months, and much of it is mixed with people's speculations.

For a summary of many of the major issues, you should go to Save Rhinebeck Aerodrome and read the petition and responses to it. I think that if Oswald Boelcke were still alive, that he'd advise you to do the same, as well as Nicole. You see, to many of us, it is some of your statements that seem off-base, but perhaps if you read carefully the issues under contension you will better understand from where we are coming. It would be great if after you read it, if you would post any questions you might have on it.

In five years of extensive work I have never seen a engine shipped off or sold to anyone.

On Saturday morning, May 12, 2007 the rare WWI air-cooled Renault 9-L engine was freshly crated up in the Museum hangar, ready to be sent out. Do you not visit the hangars on the hill? Even if not running those original engines, vehicles and aircraft contain a great deal of aviation history. Cole Palen acquired an incredible collection and if you look up almost any item in those hangars you will learn how it all ties in with advancements in technology as well as the amazing people who made it all happen.

I agree with NexStar7 that there were many checks and balances in place for the pilots for reasons of safety, and safety was paramount. While the old videos may look like chaos for the ground shows, there really were rules in place to prevent people from getting hurt, even in the days when the bombs were dropped from the planes. We all got covered in bomb soot that made it look spectacular, but it washed off after we finished putting the planes away.

Thank you, NexStar for reporting what you saw on your visit, its good to have a pilot's perspective.

Come down and talk with the people who give their blood and sweat to keep the place running to see what it is really like here, and thank you.

We do thank you Oswald and your friends for what you are doing to keep the Aerodrome going. Also for taking on projects like the Ural Motorcycle. Just remember, there were over fifty people who also gave their blood, sweat, as well as tears, time, money, and countless sacrifices to also continue Cole Palen's dream. Think about it.

[tazbat]

Nexstar, you put it very succinctly. I appreciate your expressions about the care and precision that Cole put into his airshows.

I would like to add...

Any visitor that witnessed the "Flying Circus" airshows put on by Cole and "company" would naturally get the impression that it was chaotic pandemonium. And that was the intent of its actors. It was an act that revisited the days of silent movies when the Keystone Cops were the Saturday afternoon draw. Action was coming and going from all directions. A damsel was in distress and a bumbling hero endeavored to save her from the despicable villain. The sheer, out of control imagery is what generates the spellbinding, on the edge of your seat, excitement. Cole and his "cohorts" knew how to do it and they did it with few mishaps and no fatalities. The Old Guard who followed in his footsteps, after his death, maintained that standard of safety. When the renegade trustees that took over and made ORA, "their own," they threw out all the old ideas that had worked for several decades. It was an obvious change. They "Dis'd" the Old Guard and ran them out, tossing out along with them the care and practices that had protected the planes and the pilots. True, occasionally something will go awry for which no plans can compensate. The planes and their engines are antiques and the technology was crude by todays standards. But, the loss of the Camel was no accident. An inexperienced pilot destroyed it. The loss of the Nieuport XI was also no accident. Again, an inexperienced pilot with that engine and the fact that the plane wasn't legal to fly cost the museum another plane. These planes didn't belong to the Air Shows, they were and still are part of the collection. The Air Shows doesn't own any planes, cars, or motorcycles. It owns no collection, whatsoever. Everything is leased from the Museum.

As for engines disappearing, I personally witnessed Chad Wille and another museum volunteer crating the Renault 9L engine for shipment. As many now understand, that engine along with the 120hp Mercedes engine and perhaps other items were traded to a laundering company in New Zealand for the Nieuport 24. The same plane about which a couple of NZ pilots blogged that it was difficult to fly due to a heavy tail. They seemed very glad that the plane was going else where. Elsewhere ended up being ORA.

The trustees, Chad, and at least one volunteer know about engines and airframes disappearing. Why Oswald is so in the dark is somewhat of a mystery. Why? Because there are many people outside of ORA, who can see by visiting that parts of the collection are being sold or traded. I and no one else that I am aware of, has ever bashed the volunteers for the deplorable condition ORA is in today. The blame rests solely on the shoulders of the trustees for the decision making process they adopted.

To conclude, I thank the volunteers who work hard to keep ORA alive and thriving, especially with so little direction from above. Volunteers are the backbone of museums.

Oh yeah, one more point. During my visit in June there was no apparent pre-show pilots meeting. I thought it was quite unusual. It is another indicator of the bad fruitage the trustees have sown, cultivated, and reaped at ORA.

Salute!
Sandy

[Oswald]

Thanks everyone who read and commented on my lengthy post. First let me say I am sorry if I offended anyone, or did not explain myself. I am also sorry for any spelling errors, if you could tell me what they are rather then just reminding me I am a poor speller that would be a bit more polite. Also, I fully support the petition to have the board investigated. If you belive they have done wrong the law provides for that kind of review, and no harm could come from allowing that to happen, although I hope no one would support removing a member without having a replacement member they could suggest. I would like to clarify a few things I said. I will start with what seemed to upset the most people, saying that Cole's shows where unsafe. Let me explain. In the years I have worked at the aerodrome accidents have been limited to three kinds, lost power on take off, loss of ground control on landing, and lastly the recent N-24. I would rather not explain how the first two problems are not a function of the management or airshow direction, but if anyone disputes this, we can discuss it. As far as what happened last sunday, The FAA and NTSB are investigating, but my personal belief which is in no way official and not representative of ORA's opinion, is that no equipment failure of any kind occurred. I was there, and watching when it happened, and have seen it on a recording several times. Finaly that pilot had more hours in that plane then anyone. When I say the old shows were more unsafe I am referring to a few things by and large. First, FAA regulations were much less strict, allowing things now considered unsafe. There were a few during show accidents, including the Avro rocket disabling the DR-1's rudder, dropped bombs injuring ground personnel, many many ground loops (not anyone's fault really), explosives damaging the DR-1, and the machine gun poppers igniting in the cockpit. As well Vinny is sadly not the first fatality out of Rhinebeck, though he was the first during a show. I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain why I said what I did. No show EVER starts without a 1pm pilots and crew briefing, which is usually on the flightline, but is sometimes in the ryan hanger office. As for taking off downwind, I am sure you understand it is up to the pilot to decide what direction they wish to take off and land from. As for the Spad and DR-1 incident you described, yes that was a mistake, and a serious one at that. I dont recall it happening, but I will ask around and see who remembers it and find out what happened for you. Next, yes I visit the hangers on the Hill many times a week, and just because a engine is boxed does not mean it is being shipped out, or even that it is being moved, as well, over the last 3 years we have received at least four new engine's that have not been removed from their crates. Im sorry I cant name them for you, I am not very good at identifying engines in particular. If something was being shipped away, I would be one of few people who would have to come and load it into a truck, I guarentee the board is not coming in at night and shipping them out when no one is around. Now I will try to address some of the things ONEALM brought up, and try to be as helpful as I can. First the lawyers fee's for the lawsuits I am aware of where mostly probono, it didnt cost ORA much, if anything, but it is not my place to say wether the lawsuits should be carried out to begin with, but I can tell you that I dont think either side was trying to do the right thing in all those cases. As for the missing Gnome, if we are talking about the same gnome, and hopefully we are for my sake, that I will explain in my next post, its a long story. If you can describe the Ansaldo and its engine, I will search for it. I can look in the rear hangers, Palen house basement, and Barn, areas the public is not allowed in, for whatever reasons. The need to work on the aeroplanes I mentioned is not tied to any faults in board management that I can see, but I suppose I might be wrong. As far as memberships goes, last fall I personally saw Hugh Schoetzel stand at the front entrance and talk to every visitor, signing up over 50 memberships in under a half hour. In fact memberships are likely the boards largest focus, they have been pushing them like crazy recently. Community relations had omit ably been lacking, but this too has been greatly improving. As for the spirt, my understanding, is there are simply no volunteers or skilled employes willing to take on the huge task of covering it. The very hardworking man who spearheaded the project and did the vast majority of the work no longer has time to spend on it, and such it awaits him to come back, or for someone with a similar drive and a near 24-7 commitment to come along. I thank all of you for reading. I dont deny the board must have done some terrible things for all of you to dislike them so greatly, but maybe my feeling to the contrary show things are improving. I have seen vast improvements since I joined ORA, and have fallen madly in love with Cole's dream. I would give anything to have been able to meet him. Im sorry if I have offended anyone, I have no intention to, and hold nothing but respect for the old guard. You all deserve to be kept as in the loop as possible, and if the Board wont for whatever reason, I will do my best to. Once again, thank you.
P.S. Gwen good job with guessing who I picked my name after

[airknocker]

Oswald:
Please carefully and completely read the petition Save Rhinebeck Aerodrome All the events which distress the friends of ORA are precisely listed here. When the leadership is justly removed there are many proper and experienced replacements who will keep Cole&Rita's dream alive. Also ORA will need dreamers such as yourself to perpetuate this wonderful place in our hearts.
P.S.
As a point of clarification the other fatal accident involving an ORA pilot (Dave Fox), did not occur at ORA (Kingston-Ulster Airport was the location), did not involve an ORA aircraft (Osprey II homebuilt flying boat which Dave was flight testing for a friend) and the cause was the loss of a blade from a wooden three blade propeller on takeoff which the imbalance resulted in the pylon mounted engine to shift to the rear. The extreme aft c.g. was unable to be overcome resulting in a stall/spin event. This propeller failure occurred several times before builders stopped utilizing three-bladers opting for two or four blade wooden props.
https://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=29044&key=0

[curtisswright]

I'm very suspicious of this dialog from an alleged current volunter. Why now? Very curious.