Rhinebeck Museum trouble - Page 351

Jim Bruton · 27 August 2008, 04:25 AM

It's almost like these threatened sanctuaries should have set up endowments a long time ago... who would have thought it would come to this?

Otto Knobetter · 27 August 2008, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curtisswright

Um, didn't Dick fly for years without taking a salary? Didn't Dick travel with Cole at his own expense to away shows to build the Aerodrome's marketability?

A minor point of accuracy, which someone closer to Dick might be able to answer with more authority. In my experience with the Aerodrome under Cole, the pilots, including Dick King, were paid a small amount for flying in the shows, as were some other key ground show personnel, even if they were not on the payroll during the week. I know this was true as far back as the early 1970s, when German band got a small amount to travel up from New Jersey every weekend to play in the shows.

This does not in any way mitigate the deplorable way Dick was treated in later years.

Otto

curtisswright · 27 August 2008, 07:55 AM

Thank you Otto. I was referring to the way-back years, prior to the Prussian Band. I had a lengthy sitdown with Dick a short six weeks before he passed. He had vivid memories of away airshows, particularly in Canada, where the Pup and Triplane did their thing. My point being, Cole was one man. He could fly one plane at a time, play one part on the ground (at a time). The boards treatment of Dick was illustrative of the extent they were/are willing to go to separate the aerodrome from its roots. We are all reasonable enough to know that change does happen. The extent to which we all accept it and indeed react to it is another matter. Few things in this life remain static (except the NYS Board of Regents). However, for the Board to alienate the very people that made the aerodrome what it was, and continued to be even after Cole's role became more limited, is just plain stupidity.

What I believe to be happening now at the aerodrome, and it is just theory and speculation mind you, is the result of the loss of moral ownership that almost every volunteer shared with Cole himself. And that came from being around him, or Dick, or Dave Fox, or Gordon...Mike L comes to mind also. I'm not saying that the volunteers today are not enthisiastic, or don't care. They obviously work hard. What I am saying is that without that little bit of passion, or Palen magic that we all speak of carried into the future, into the mindset of the future stewards of the aerodrome, it is destined to be just another place where they fly old airplanes. Would Cole have traded those engines? Would he have parted with a rotary engine? Would he have done a bombing run with a piper cub? I think he would have rallied the troops and called on the people that would do almost anything for the aerodrome to rectify, or correct any situation that came down the pike. Does the aerodrome of today have that kind of support, or the legion of volunteers? I don't know.

wingnut · 27 August 2008, 10:00 AM

News from the Dutchess County Fair. The Aerodrome was there with the Model T and Cole's 59 Cadillac. In the parade of vehicles, the Cadiilac started to overheat. Yet the driver continued driving in the parade with the engine knocking and some smoke. The motor quit . The driver still continued to try and start it. HELLO! They pushed it out of the parade. More incompetence. If someone is given the responsibility of a vehicle, I would think they should have at least, the most basic knowledge of a gasoline engine. Just keep pushing the collection to juke. Nice job. A bunch of incompetents, dressing up in vintage clothes, just praying the damn vehicle will operate for one more day. And on it goes, or not. Sad, real sad.

Gwen · 27 August 2008, 03:42 PM

I will refrain from commenting on the preliminary findings of the NTSB. Below is the narrative statement of facts. For the complete report, please follow this link.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC08LA281&rpt=p

Brief narrative statement of facts, conditions and circumstances pertinent to the accident/incident:

On August 17, 2008, at 1550 eastern daylight time, an amateur-built Nieuport 24bis, N5246, was destroyed when it impacted trees and terrain while maneuvering near Old Rhinebeck Airport (NY94), Rhinebeck, New York. The certificated airline transport pilot was fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed for the local air show flight,
which was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

According to preliminary information provided by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, the accident flight was a two airplane aerial demonstration of World War I vintage aircraft simulating a "dogfight." The other airplane participating in the demonstration was a Fokker DR-1.
The entire flight was conducted about 300 feet above ground level.

According to the pilot of the Fokker, he and the accident pilot briefed prior the flight, and the accident pilot departed first in the Nieuport. The Fokker pilot then followed behind the Nieuport while they performed a 360-degree turn, followed by a "lead change," where the trailing airplane would turn first, and the previous lead airplane would follow. The Nieuport then followed the
Fokker for another 360-degree turn, before performing another lead change at the air show center point. After a third 360-degree turn, both airplanes proceeded east before turning away from each other, the Nieuport going south and the Fokker north.

As the Fokker turned back around toward the show line, he noticed the Nieuport beginning a left turn. The Fokker pilot looked away for a moment, and he next saw the Nieuport in "what looked to be a 3 turn spin to the left," before it disappeared into the trees below. The Fokker pilot subsequently circled the accident site in order to help first responders on the ground locate it.

An FAA inspector examined and photographed the wreckage at the scene. According to the inspector, the accident site was located in a densely wooded area, with trees greater than 100 feet tall. The trees around the accident site remained largely undisturbed, with the exception of the trees
immediately above where the wreckage came to rest. Several large tree branches were lying on the ground, which exhibited cuts consistent with propeller contact. The wreckage was consumed by a postimpact fire.

The wreckage was retained for further examination.

The pilot held an airline transport pilot certificate with a rating for airplane multiengine land, and a commercial pilot certificate with ratings for airplane single engine land and sea. He also held a flight instructor certificate with ratings for airplane single and multiengine, and instrument airplane. The pilot's most recent FAA second class medical certificate was issued on May
20, 2008, with the limitation, "holder shall possess glasses for near vision."

According to training documents maintained by the operator, as of August 8, 2008, the pilot had accumulated 3,881 total hours of flight experience, 2,372 hours of which were in tail wheel equipped airplanes. Additionally, the pilot completed the operator's initial qualification training in the Nieuport 24 on July 10, 2008. According to the qualification record, the pilot had completed
5 flights, for a total of 1.0 hours of training. According to the FAA inspector, the pilot had flown about 3 additional hours in the accident airplane since that time.

According to FAA airworthiness and registration records, the accident airplane was built in Florida, in 1997. It was then registered in New Zealand, before the operator took ownership of and re-registered the airplane in the United States on August 29, 2007. The airplane was subsequently inspected by a designated airworthiness representative, and issued a special airworthiness certificate on May 29, 2008.

The weather conditions reported at Dutchess County Airport (POU), Poughkeepsie, New York, located about 20 nautical miles south of the accident site, at 1553, included winds from 230 degrees at 7 knots, 10 statute miles visibility, scattered clouds at 6,000 feet, temperature 28 degrees Celsius (C), dewpoint 15 degrees C, and an altimeter setting of 29.89 inches of mercury.

air male · 27 August 2008, 09:42 PM

Mr Nasta is recognized by the NTSB as a very experienced pilot, especially in tail draggers. It would seem that if he had sufficient time in the Nieuport 24 before flying in air shows, he would not have made the mistake of stalling the plane. This is assuming he had no other problems like loss of engine power, defective controls issues, etc.

And, if the BOT comes back and says that the Nieuport 24 was an easy plane to fly, then why wasn't anyone one else flying it on a regular basis? The last four air shows I attended, the plane either sat in a hangar or on the flight line.

loop.dee.loop · 28 August 2008, 10:45 AM

Baldeagle,

You seem to know quite a bit about the Aerodrome and care for it very much, why did you leave instead of staying to battle it out?

Jim Bruton · 28 August 2008, 10:50 AM

maybe because he lives in another state with his career and other obligations.

let's keep the focus on questionable behaviors where it belongs, and it isn't on Baldeagle.

BobGhee · 28 August 2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingnut

News from the Dutchess County Fair. The Aerodrome was there with the Model T and Cole's 59 Cadillac. In the parade of vehicles, the Cadiilac started to overheat. Yet the driver continued driving in the parade with the engine knocking and some smoke. The motor quit . The driver still continued to try and start it. HELLO! They pushed it out of the parade. More incompetence. If someone is given the responsibility of a vehicle, I would think they should have at least, the most basic knowledge of a gasoline engine. Just keep pushing the collection to juke. Nice job. A bunch of incompetents, dressing up in vintage clothes, just praying the damn vehicle will operate for one more day. And on it goes, or not. Sad, real sad.

Fundamentally, these people have no deep-seated regard or reverence for
anything old! THAT was the "Cole Palen tradition", and it's all gone now...
Please read the petition and get behind it, so that the stumblebums can
be removed, and the Palen people returned!!!

baldeagle · 30 August 2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loop.dee.loop

Baldeagle,

You seem to know quite a bit about the Aerodrome and care for it very much, why did you leave instead of staying to battle it out?

You obviously don't know much, I left in 1986. But I knew a lot of the good people who stayed, and have met some of the others who are there now.

Sorry I apparently haven't lived up to your obviously very high standards.

Back to relevant discussion please.