MVR's RED FI 102 ???

[Gregvan]

Hello Alex, Stephen, and All,

Well, here we go again. I believe we've hashed this over on the forum more than once before. The references to a "red triplane" encountered in September 1917 in Gould Lee's superb "No Parachute" have always bugged me, and intrigued me. As Dan says, the photo of 102/17 after its crash with Wolff on 15 September (see page 22 of Alex Imrie's wonderful "The Fokker Triplane") certainly show that the original factory finish had not been overpainted.

I yield to no one in my respect for Arthur Gould Lee's accomplishments as a pilot and as an author. "No Parachute" is by far one of the best pilot autobios I've ever read, and I'm always going back to it. Gould Lee was both a highly successful military airman and a gifted writer.

It is my humble opinion that when he was preparing the letters he had written to his young wife in 1917, as well as excerpts from his diary, for publication in "No Parachute", he occasionally took a writer's opportunity to insert additional information in to the narrative, in order to add interest for the "buff" reader and to make the story flow more smoothly. In his intro, he himself says the letters were heavily edited, and comments about "these artless sentences" that "contain neither heroics nor fine writing". Yet the book is full of very fine writing indeed. I do NOT think this detracts from the value of the book in any way, and I certainly do not intend to cast aspersions on the character of Gould-Lee. I believe he did this in a totally innocent fashion, and did not add new facts or change facts, but merely added additional interesting info.

I believe that the references to a "red triplane" are examples of this rare 'insertion' of material. By the time he was editing the book (the late 60's) Gould Lee certainly knew that the Fokker Triplane that his 46 Squadron encountered on 3 Sept was flown by Richthofen, and that his squadron mate Lt A F Bird was shot down by the "Red Baron". It was generally accepted at that time that 102/17 WAS red, thus the references to a red triplane:

Sept 3: " The two chaps who got away, badly shot about, said that one of the Huns was flying a triplane, coloured red. It must be a captured naval Tripe,I suppose."

Sept 5: " ...Odell, who had seen a triplane coming down from behind,but taken no notice, thinking it was a Nautical, was amazed to find it firing at him...then (he) saw the black crosses. The others turned too, and a brisk little scrap followed, the Hun being joined by a D-V. The triplane, which was painted red, had a stupendous performance, and when he decided he's had enough he lifted up above everybody else like a rocket. He must have been a pretty hot pilot..."

Sept 6: "He was all-red, even to the underside, so he could have been Richthofen himself".

In a footnote, Gould Lee notes on the 6th that it could have been MvR, but later that same day he set out on convalescent leave.

As I hope I have made clear, it is not my intention to throw mud on Gould-Lee or his book, merely to try to squash the re-occurring notion that this book contains irrefutable proof that 102/17 was red. Other passages in the book contain the occasional detail which I believe must have been added later - why would a young pilot, fresh from a combat, go to the trouble of differentiating between Albatros D.V's and D.III's in a letter to his new wife (indeed, how many RFC pilots knew the difference ? Most of them simply called them all "vee-strutters") ?

As has been indicated, perhaps this could be settled with a look at 46 Squadron's actual combat reports from those days' combats. Do they still exist in the PRO or elsewhere, and if so, do ANY of the eyewitnesses mention that the "Hun Triplane" was painted red ??

As always, I'm merely in search of the truth.

Greg VanWyngarden

[StephenLawson]

Originally posted by StephenLawson@Dec 13 2003, 09:26 AM
[b] '...But don't worry folks all our questions will soon be laid to rest in the new up coming book from Tongue-N-Cheek publishing ' I been chatting with the Red Baron by Rokchen Dedbottom' Seems he developed a clairvoyant contact with MvR and has been getting regular feed back from beyond through the modern incarnation Ms. Dee Rittmeister. The great fortune is that we now can know everything we always wondered about. The great modern historian Rokchen Dedbottom delves into the psychi of the former ace as he answers Herrn Debottom's plethora of questions. Low and behold Voss' cowling wasn't yellow or green. It was actually chromate yellow and black in a tartan pattern. The poor reproductive qualities of the orthochromatic film can now be dissen-regarded. Oh hap hap happy days!!!! This book should be in everyone's library. An absolute must to the zerious rezearcher!!!! Zend for your copy today!!!!'

News flash&#33;&#33;&#33; The imaging on Voss&#39; cowling is now reported to be in a red & green hound&#39;s tooth rather than a tartan pattern. It seems that it was changed on Sept. 21 1917. The yellow and black is still accurate for pre Sept. 21. See revisionism aint so bad. <_<

[Frank_Olynyk]

Having just added Norman Macmillan&#39;s combat report for Sept 11, 1917 to my database, I would note that he was credited with two Triplanes OOC. In the report he describes them both as "buff all over". Interestingly his report does not give the time, and there is a note at the bottom, undoubtedly from Wing HQ, "time please?". From other evidence I have the time as 1525. Interestingly, (Wing?) HQ notes only 1 out of control to be credited, while the forthcoming Communiqué (#105) gave him credit for two (which is what he claimed, although obviously [to us] it was the same plane; it should be noted that these should not be refered to as "victories", they were considered "decisive combats" by the British).

Another combat report from September that I have entered, that give color information, is also for Sept 11, at 0940, by 2/Lt J Machaffie (anybody have his first name?) of 29 Sqn, who notes it as green-grey; no claim was made, and the combat was indecisive.

On Sept 16 at 1600, 2/Lt R M Strang (names, anyone?) of 19 Sqn, had an indecisive combat with a dark brown triplane.

The last 1917 reference to a triplane was on Oct 2, by 2/Lt Keith Knox Muspratt of 56 Sqn. The next was on Jan 13, 1918 by DH-4s of 49 Sqn.

Frank.

[Gregvan]

Many Thanks, Frank &#33;&#33; Great stuff. It&#39;s generally believed/accepted (?) that Macmillan and others of 45 Sqdn encountered Voss in 103/17 in the afternoon of Sept 11. Voss downed Lt McMaking of 45 Sqn in the same fight that afternoon. There&#39;s a good reason Macmillan said "both" triplanes were &#39;buff all over&#39; - they were one and the same airplane, Voss in 103/17 (who was not downed that day, obviously)&#33; Macmillan simply made an honest mistake, both in his impression of how many triplanes were encountered, and in how he shot them down.

It&#39;s very interesting to note that the rather neutral camouflage streaking on the F.I triplanes - 102 and 103/17 - resulted in a wide range of color impressions of Allied pilots.

6 Sept., Capt F D Stevens and Lt Cambray of No 20 encountered Voss and said the triplane was "painted light green"

11 Sept, Macmillan : "buff all over"

11 Sept, Machaffie, No. 29 Sqn: "green grey"

16 Sept, Lt Strang, No 19 Sqn - "dark brown"

23 Sept - McCudden, 56 Sqn (ref to 103/17) "silvery blue"

23 Sept - Caldwell of 60 Sqn (again, 103/17) -" blue-grey"


I know there are still other impressions from B Flight of 56 Squadron, but I cannot locate them right now. It all shows, perhaps, how risky it is to assume combat report descriptions of colors are literally accurate and reliable.

Nonetheless, none of the reports mention a &#39;red triplane" (and you might assume they would, had they seen one ?) or, for that matter, a yellow cowling &#33;&#33;

Greg VanWyngarden

[wings]

Three points:
Does the crash photo in the Imrie book show the ENTIRE aircraft? If not, how can you say there was no red on it? How about the nose or cowling area?

Does anyone have the recent book on the Sopwith Pup? If so, does it give any color details on the triplane that was encountered in Sept.1917 by 46 Squadron Pups?

On Sept.6, 1917, Sloley of 56 Sq., encountered a "yellow and brown" triplane and a "grey" new-type(Pfalz). Probably Voss and Jasta 10.

[StephenLawson]

I wonder how many pilots were colorblind to one degree or another?

[Barker]

Can I just say this outloud?

As I understand it, both Voss and MvR were delighted to get a different, spirited thoroughbred after the D.III.

Early on, think they cared less &#39;bout livery.

"Climbs like a bat, does flat spins".


"Let&#39;s see what this baby can do."


That&#39;s the sense I get from any write-up.

Red? Somewhere?
On #102?
Does it matter?

(yes it does, but I do not think #102 had any red on it until Kurt bought it.)
Subsequent makes MvR made his own.
Voss didn&#39;t live so long....

[StephenLawson]

I guess someone is doubting the new improved revized new age version of Voss 103/17-2003? harumpffff&#33;&#33;&#33; <_<