Le Prieur Rockets

[Barrett]

There was an interesting thread on antiballoon rockets last year. Just wonder if anybody knows whether Le Prieurs (or others) were used much after 1916. It appears that following initial success, they were seldom employed though apparently the Brits and maybe Italians occasionally used 'em.

Did the Germans try anything comprable?

[MikeW]

Barrett,

not quite the answer you're looking for, but I have a record of a naval squadron carrying out some intensive practice using Le Prieurs on a ground target in 1917.

They never actually used them against the opposition though.


Mike

[R Pope]

Those things were more dangerous to the plane carrying them than to the enemy.

[Immo_Frese]

Barrett,

Lt. Heinrich Gontermann did some experiments with self made "rockets" in spring 1917.

But I never heard, that the germans used rockets officially...

Immo

[Barrett]

Thank you, Immo. It makes sense that Gontermann would be interested: he bagged nearly 20 balloons in 1917.

It's certainly regrettable that so little documentation exists on Drachen losses; comparing the Allied records to German claims indicates roughly a 75% accuracy rate.

[Gregvan]

Hi Barrett,

Take a look at pp. 31-33 of Jon Guttman's "Spad VII Aces of World War I". He relates how some French pilots made occasional use of LePrieurs in 1917. As late as 20 August 1917, Pierre de Cazenove de Pradines set off for a balloon with a SPAD VII armed with LePrieurs. He reported that when he loosed the rockets, they "fired off in all directions in an impressive smoky display. When it cleared, I found myself heading for an intact balloon-the rockets had gone in every direction except at the target !" He returned the next day with phosphorus bullets in his MG and flamed the balloon. In Jon's follow-up book on "SPAD XII/XIII Aces" there is a photo on page 64 which shows Maurice Boyau with an early SPAD XIII fitted with LePrieur tubes. I also have a photo of an Italian SPAD VII fitted with LePrieurs.

Immo, are you sure it was Gontermann who experimented with rockets? I have read somewhere that the "Gontermann method" occasionally included use of a flare pistol to try to set a balloon ablaze, but never rockets - I'd like to hear more. On the other hand, Ltn Rudolf Nebel of Jasta 5 (the 'noted German rocket pioneer', says Pete Grosz) did indeed mount two stovepipes under each wing of his Halberstadt fighter, installed four signal rockets and fitted ignition cables connected to a firing button. However, he intended these for use against heavier-than-air craft. He reported that he attacked a large English squadron, fired his rockets with a whoosh, and one English pilot was so terrified that he immediately landed behind the German lines. . He then reported that eight days later he shot the propeller off an enemy machine with his rockets, which crashed. A week later he had his stove pipes installed under the lower wing of an Albatros D.III, but the fiery rocket exhaust set the wings afire. He was able to extinguish the flames in the slipstream. Grosz adds, "It must be emphasized that the accuracy of Nebel's written account is not corroborated by his logbook."

Also, on 16 October 1916 a 'Raketentrupp' equipped with one Halberstadt D.II fighter armed with 4 stick-stabilized rockets mounted on the outer wing struts for balloon attacks, left Berlin for the Front. Two weeks later the 'Trupp was back in Berlin due to 'difficulty with the rocket system,' and nothing further was done with it. There are photos of this Halberstadt D.II.

Greg

[Immo_Frese]

Originally posted by Gregvan@Apr 6 2004, 09:57 PM
[b]
Immo, are you sure it was Gontermann who experimented with rockets? I have read somewhere that the "Gontermann method" occasionally included use of a flare pistol to try to set a balloon ablaze, but never rockets - I'd like to hear more.

Hi Greg,

well, that's why I put the word "rocket" in quotation marks In a report from his diary from 8 Apr 1917 Gontermann states that he had an unsuccessfull attack on a balloon around 6 p.m . The balloon did not burn and because of the accurate AAA, Gontermann decided to break off the attack. At the end of his report he said that he will try to attack the balloons the next time with selfmade
"Leuchtkugelpfeile". I think these are the so called "stick-stabilized signal light-rockets". Gontermann was still with Jasta 5 at this time, so perhaps he had copied the method by Nebel or perhaps they cooperated in fiddling these things togeteher...

In a letter home to his parents, dated 15 Apr 1917 he wrote that a balloon attack with these rockets had been successfull on 13 April when he flamed a french balloon at 7.40 p.m near St.Quentin.

Greg, do you have any dates for Nebel's experiments with the signal-rockets ?

Immo

[Matt_Bittner]

Don't forget about Chassard's book on Dorme and Guiguet. If memory serves, there's quite a large section on Le Prieur rockets.

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

Immo, thanks for that additional information on Gontermann - very fascinating stuff ! Peter Grosz' info on Rudolf Nebel's experiments came from Nebel's book "Die Narren von Tegel" (1972). Unfortunately, it is apparently lacking in dates. In the article on the Halberstadt fighters which he co-wrote with Ed Ferko in "Air Enthusiast Quarterly" No. 14, Pete wrote that Nebel conceived the idea while he was lying badly wounded in a hospital following an air battle. Nebel then visited a pioneer depot and "cadged several lengths of stovepipe and a supply of large signal rockets such as used by the infantry." He mounted two pipes under each lower wing of his Halberstadt, leading the four ignition cables to a cockpit-mounted firing switch. Eight days after his first victory, Nebel shot the propeller off of another a/c which crashed. A week later, his Albatros D.III wings were ignited by the rockets and he managed to crash land the a/c, and was slightly injured again in the crash. Acording to his book, Nebel was recommended for the Iron Cross 1st Class and the Ehrenbecher for his two 'victories' with the rockets, by Oblt Hans Berr, but further rocket experimentation was strictly forbidden.

Incidentally, Grosz also writes that Hermann Göring wrote a report for headquarters about Nebel's experiments, and he coined the term "Nebelwerfer" for the rocket weapon (literally 'fog thrower', a nice cover name for a new weapon), a name accepted by the Jasta 5 pilots with 'great enthusiasm'. The name was to re-surface in the German military lexicon in WW2 for the German rocket-barrage weapon, similar to the Russian Katyuscha.

Now, in Rick Duiven's notes I find that Nebel had an unconfirmed victory over a DH2 on 11 March 1917, and his first confirmed victory was over an FE2b on 26 April 1917 ? I can find no mention of Nebel being wounded or injured. However, if his book can be trusted (which doesn't seem entirely likely) perhaps he was experimenting with his rockets in March/April 1917, and the aircraft he 'shot the propeller off of' was the FE2b on 26 April ? Gontermann was obviously experimenting with rockets at the same time.

Just some thoughts.

Greg

[Barrett]

Thanks, gents, one & all.
Here's a bit of additional background.

Gontermann is credited with the 55th Cie. balloon on 8 Apr 17 though my source doesn't mention choice of weapons. However, French reports some attempted aerial bombings, to wit:

On 9 Feb a German aircraft destroyed the 72nd Cie balloon by bombing
On 23 April a Rumpler dropped two bombs on the 36th Cie. balloon without result
On 4 Sep the 48 Cie balloon was damaged by an aerial bomb

Incidentally, despite the obvious hazards, it appears that relatively aeronauts were KIA. The USAS lost just one observer and I can find fewer than 30 French fatalities, including accidents, 1916-18. Don't have much info on Brits, and German info is extremely thin. However, based on Allied claims, the Germans lost a hellacious number of Drachen in 1918; well over one a day from May onwards.