Bomber Raid to Oberndorf 12. October 1916

[Immo_Frese]

Hallo Jens,

der Einfachheit halber hier die offizielle deutsche Meldung über den Angriff vom 12.10.1916:

"Von den 40 englisch-französischen Flugzeugen haben 15 Oberndorf erreicht und etwa 60 Bomben dort abgeworfen. Die übrigen feindlichen Flugzeuge wurden durch die Angriffe unserer Flugzeuge zerstreut und warfen ihre Bomben wahllos auf Wald, Wiesen und zahlreiche kleinere Ortschaften ab. Militärischer Sachschaden ist weder in Oberndorf noch anderswo entstanden, sonstiger Sachschaden war gering. Der Betrieb der Fabrik wurde nicht gestört. 3 Personen wurden getötet, 7 verletzt; sie hielten sich im Freien auf und wurden durch Bombensplitter getroffen. Von den 40 Flugzeugen wurden durch unsere Flieger und Erdabwehr 9 abgeschossen...Von unseren an den Luftkämpfen beteiligten Flugzeugen ging keines verloren. Kein Insasse unserer Flugzeuge wurde getötet oder auch nur verletzt."

Immo

[Soderbaum]

Thanks Immo

This is actually the first time I have seen an original German report on this raid....

It is interesting that it "only" reported a totally of nine aircraft shot down in the raid....

I have the two aircraft brought down by Jasta 15 pilots (Udet and Pfälzer) as You have....however one discprepancy seems to be Lt dR Kurt Haber which I believe "still" was a member FFA 6b when claiming his victory this day. I am also rather uncertain about the location given for his victory or the identify it as a Sopw 2 is correct...It seems rather certain that only one Sopwith two-seater was lost during this raid and this is the one claimed by Hanstein below....!

Five e/a were claimed by pilots from FFA 9b (attached to KEK Ensisheim) as follows:
Lt Kissenberth 3 e/a
Lt Hanstein 1 e/a
Vw Ludwig Hilz 1 e/a at Umkirch

One further e/a was claimed by German flyers at Steinbach as mentioned by my earlier...I have a rough guess that this might have been brought down by an AGO a/c (Hartl and Kiliani ??) as supposed mentioned in the material below from Graeme...

The 10th (9th?) is the Breguet brought down by Flak..

Peter Kilduff in his short article (se below) clearly states that the allied lossed 10 a/c and that 21 crewman failed to return, but he might have included the Letord from Esc R 210 which came down in the Vogesen within allied lines..?

Another reported allied loss possible connected to this raid is Adj Didier Masson from Esc N 124 who was forced to land just inside French lines after reported hits by Flak...


Gunnar

[Immo_Frese]

Hi Gunnar,

this story becomes more and more interesting...

After some more diggin' in my papers (big chaos) I came to the following conclusion based on some notes I've made from an official german report. I think it was a "Reuter-Meldung"...

First, I too think, that the claim made by Haber was indeed a Breguet. This was the machine which came down near Steinbach, near the railroad-lines from Hasbach-Offenburg, and that the only Sopwith Strutter shot down in this Raid was the one claimed by Hanstein. Furthermore I'm more or less convinced that the AGO crew Hartl & Kiliani was involved in the fight near Bremgarten, but that credit went to Pfälzer...

1. Farman, F 123, Adj. H.Baron & Sgt.Guerineau, both KIA, Widenzohen, Kissenberth

2. Farman, F 123, S/Lt. A.Georges & Sgt. E.Jouan, both KIA, Ihringen, Kissenberth

3. Bréguet, 3.Wing RNAS, Lt. Rockey & Sgt.Sterdec, both POW, Oberenzen, Kissenberth

4. Bréguet , BM 120, Cpl. R.de Montais & Soldat A. Haas, both KIA, Rüstenhart, Udet.

5. Bréguet, BM 120, Cpl. Bouet & Soldat Delcroix, both POW, Bremgarten, Pfälzer

6. Sopwith Strutter, the one mentioned by Mike, ftl. by Hanstein.

7. Bréguet, BM 120, MdL. L.Barlet & Soldat Luneau, both KIA, Umkirch, Hilz

8. Bréguet, BM 120, MdL. L.Mottay & Soldat Marchand, WIA/POW & KIA, Steinbach, Haber.

9. Bréguet, 3.Wing RNAS, FLt.C.D. Newman & GL Vitty, both POW, Buggingen, Ground fire.

I'm rather convinced that the germans only claimed 9 e/a in this raid against Oberndorf. I also tend to the assumption that the other allied aircraft loss was the one which came down in the Vosges...

I have no clue concerning Lt. Habers unit on 12 Oct 1916. Time for Rick or Jörg to jump in

Immo

[Immo_Frese]

... forgot the following picture. Possibly one of the shot down Bréguets.

Immo

[Soderbaum]

Thanks very much Immo for solving the "Steinbach" mystery...

Also the German list for captured a/c in Oct 1916 only identifies nine which fell within German lines....however, I still think there is a possibility that the Letord could have been confirmed to a German flyer if this a/c actually was destroyed..?
There is also a small possibility that Masson(US) could have been confirmed to another Flak unit with the same motivation...
But in both cases it is possible that the Germans did not directly connected these possible victories to the actual raid....

Interesting photo, it might be possible to identify with the information we have about the outcome of the different fights...
...Can anyone identify if it is a Farman F42 or Breguet...?

If it is a Breguet and we can assume that the allied flyers were killed(?), only Hilz claim at Umkirch is possible...!


Gunnar

[Rick]

Originally posted by Immo_Frese@May 25 2004, 02:01 PM
[b]I have no clue concerning Lt. Habers unit on 12 Oct 1916. Time for Rick or Jörg to jump in

I show Haber joining Jasta 15 on 9 October 1916 (when it was formed). Therefore, on the 12th he was with Jasta 15. Be interesting to see what Jörg says. R.

[Immo_Frese]

Hi Gunnar,

some aspects of this fight remain a mystery for me because of the different reports I have from Nowarra/van Ishoven and the official Reuter-Meldung. Of course we have to be very carefull with all the written stuff by Nowarra and obviously van Ishoven take a lot of what he wrote about this fight from Nowarras book "Udet, vom Fliegen besessen" or vice versa...

The interesting thing is, that both authors said in their books, that Udet forced his opponent down, tried to land nearby the Bréguet and crashed because of a broken tire on his Fok D.III. The french crew Barlet & Luneau was ok and talked to Udet afterwards.

Surprisingly Udet did not wrote about this incident in his book "Mein Fliegerleben" at all!

The official Reuter-Meldung lists all the dead or captured allied crews. Only Barlet and Luneau are not listed. Instead there is the entry "both men of the crew dead". I therefore think that the names of this crew couldn't be known to the german officials because they burnt in the crashed plane you can see on the photo I posted ...? BTW, the "French Air Service" lists them as MIA (Barlet & Luneau).

Another possibility is, that Udet claimed the Bréguet at Umkirch and Hilz the one over Rüstenhart. But there still remains the problem why the Reuter-Meldung lists an unknown dead crew...

Who is wrong here?

Immo

[Soderbaum]

Hi again Immo

I think that Udet´s later book "Mein Fliegerleben" has wrong information and that both Nowarra and van Ishoven has based their statements on Udet´s first book "Kreutz wieder Kokarde" which was published in Berlin in 1918.

This book is more or less Udet´s victory reports with some added information (probably correct). However as it was published during the War, the dates(if they even are mentioned) and the time-line for the incidents has been mixed up...

His report however dont identify his a/c as a Fokker DIII, it only says Fokker d.d. I have the complete report in German if You are interested..?

I am also rather sure that Udet´s victory came down at Rüstenhart, despite that he only says R. in this book. Also later lists of Udet´s victories from the 1930s says Rüstenhart...the French pilot was a policeman from Nancy....
I dont knew what date the Reuter meldung was published, but in the German list of captured a/c for Oct 1916 are all crews from the nine aircraft identified...

But this list dont mentioned the fate of Sgt Barlet and Bombardier Luneau.
It says it was a Breguet BM IV with serial number 229.
The only Breguet without any s/n in this list are the Breguet flown by Rockey and Sturdee from 3 N Wing...

Hm...does it exist any photo on Udet´s Breguet...?...could " FASWC" have "killed" the wrong French crew..?


Gunnar

[MikeW]

Gunnar Wrote:

the French pilot was a policeman from Nancy....

Ah, so he was a Nancy boy then?


Very sorry , that's an incredibly "non Politically Correct" joke that only Ginger and myself would appreciate.


Mike (about to be struck off the forum if Scott understands English jokes)

[Soderbaum]

Hi Mike

Actually I did not understand anything of this joke..

But in general I am a fan of English humor (the small parts I can follow) and I also like very much many British Television series...

However, I have a question....do You knew if Rockey and Sturdee from 3 N Wing were able to burn their a/c after being brought down...?...or if it burned up by other reasons..?


Gunnar