RAF and Khakis...

["Junior"]

Right we've been talking about this over on the Medals board but so far nobody's been able to answer this question so I thought I'd post it here as a new topic in the hope that some knowledgable fellow (or fellass) here knows the answer.

I'm trying to find out the cutoff date when the RAF said that the wearing of khakis was henceforth forbidden and that the new blue/grays were compulsory wearing.

Anyone have a clue?

Junior.

I'm afraid I don't know the date but the Air Historical Branch (RAF) would be able to help. You can get an application form from: -

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhis.html

["Junior"]

Thanks for the link. I will use the AHB if I absolutely have to, but such services are notorious for taking a month of Sundays to get an answer.

I though it best to try here first off as the depth of knowledge here is akin to the Oracle at Delphi

Cheers and welcome to the 'drome!

Junior.

[timjnf]

Right we've been talking about this over on the Medals board but so far nobody's been able to answer this question so I thought I'd post it here as a new topic in the hope that some knowledgable fellow (or fellass) here knows the answer.

I'm trying to find out the cutoff date when the RAF said that the wearing of khakis was henceforth forbidden and that the new blue/grays were compulsory wearing.

Anyone have a clue?

Junior.

Junior,
I don't know if you're refering to a time during WWI or not (I don't follow much about uniforms and such) but I just finished reading (rereading actually) Roald Dahl's "Going Solo"; the end of which deals with his experience as an RAF pilot at the beginning of WWII. He was in Africa and Greece and khakis (shorts and shirt) were what they wore then.
So if they got rid of them during WWI, they were brought back at some point.

-Tim

["Junior"]

Sorry Tim, but that's Tropical Dress which the RAF wore during WWII in the desert and Med. I'm interested in knowing when the RAF banned any further use of the khakis which were the original uniform from the RFC.

Junior.

[Grovetown]

OK chaps: time to step in as there seems to be some confusion over terminology to start with.

1. British WW1 army and RFC service dress (SD) of the green drab variety is not Khaki. It was properly called Serge Drab Mixture. Joe Sweeney tells us the following, “Pre-war, the Royal Army Clothing Department (RACD) not only pattern sealed the actual Jackets but also the Serge wool used in manufacture. Pre-war manufacture was confined to a small number of civilian manufacturers and the Royal Army Clothing Factory (RACF). During the war 6 alternate types of Serge Drab Mixture were approved for use in manufacturing SD Jackets: Serge DM No’s 1, 2, 3 and 4 Serge DM piece dyed, and Serge DM Heavy Special”. This obviously applies to issue kit; but officers were expected to conform in colour, if not material.

Khaki is the sand/ tan coloured material used for ‘tropical’ service dress, and is properly referred to as Khaki Drill (KD). The RFC, RNAS and RAF all wore issue KD service in Mespot, Salonika, Africa etc.

Cormack doesn’t exactly help here, as though he refers to KD specifically, he elsewhere seems to treat khaki as a synonym for drab, which it certainly isn’t. He does offer us this though...

2. Replacement of Service Dress (drab) by Blue. Blue officers uniform wasn’t sanctioned for service dress wear until July 1918 (it was limited to mess dress before then). Air Ministry Weekly Order (AMWO) 1140 of October 1918 ordered that all officers should possess at least one suit of RAF pattern; with officers only permitted to wear their old pre-RAF service dress as working dress within the confines of their aerodromes.

This conversion process was hastened by the fact that officers were not permitted to add RAF promotions to their old SD.

This ‘working dress’ only rule was often ignored, with officers continuing to wear pre-RAF SD off-base until expressly forbidden to do so by AMWO 1597 of December 1918.

Pre-RAF service dress could be continued to be worn on-base only until it wore out, and in practice was seen up to, but really no later than, 1920.

For officers then: RAF Blue becomes service dress in July 1918; pre-RAF service dress banned off-base from December ’18; pre-RAF service dress stated at the same time to used on-base only until worn out – theoretically no date for banning, but not seen after 1920.

ORs doesn’t seem so clear cut and I can’t offer a similar time line; except to say all regulations regarding service dress for all ranks were consolidated and re-stated in July 1919 (AMWO 783). I'll keep reading.

Khaki – aka KD – was worn in relevant theatres by all RAF ranks continuously throughout, in-between and beyond both world wars.

Rgds,

Grovetown.

["Junior"]

Thanks Grovetown for the info, just what I was after.

And many thanks for putting me right regarding my mistake with the khakis. For some reason I was under the impression that the greeny drab uniform was coloquially referred to as "khakis". Good to be corrected and much appreciated!

Junior.

[Grovetown]

Junior,

No problem and my pleasure. We've all used the khaki as a generic for SD uniform; until we become proper 'anoraks'. The discussion about breeches on the other forum was a red herring too, as RAF pattern uniform only ever comprised tunic and trousers.

And we didn't get into the complications arising from the fact that a type of material like serge, used for SD trousers, was officially called Tartan, even though it's plain green; or that cuff rank for army officers wasn't officially scrapped until 1921. My head hurts.

Rgds,

Grovetown.

[ChrisM]

[QUOTE]"Blue officers uniform wasn’t sanctioned for service dress wear until July 1918 (it was limited to mess dress before then). Air Ministry Weekly Order (AMWO) 1140 of October 1918 ordered that all officers should possess at least one suit of RAF pattern; with officers only permitted to wear their old pre-RAF service dress as working dress within the confines of their aerodromes.... This ‘working dress’ only rule was often ignored, with officers continuing to wear pre-RAF SD off-base until expressly forbidden to do so by AMWO 1597 of December 1918."



Thanks for all that interesting information, Grovetown.

I suppose that these two instructions must have been hedged with written or unwritten qualifications and/or at the very least could not have been imposed with any rigour, at least for air-crew serving overseas. Do you think that the target might have been Home Establishment personnel solely? Presumably visiting their London tailor can hardly have been the most pressing priority for front-line pilots and observers in October 1918. And even after the Armistice could one really imagine an officer eager to invest in new kit when he was itching for demob which would be coming in a very few months? Or an observer who was intending to return to his army regiment? Certainly in the odd early-1919 street or leave train picture I have seen where RAF officers appear, blue uniforms do not seem to predominate (even allowing for the sepia&#33

Finally, just for interest, the reaction to the new uniform of one DH9 pilot writing to his mother on 3rd October 1918 from the Western Front:

“So you will like the new blue uniform! It seems to have come to stay this time but is very unserviceable. One of our pilots returning from leave strolled into our old tumble down mess in a brand-new blue uniform - we didn't half laugh and pulled his leg - it seemed such a scream amongst us in our oldest and dirtiest things.”

[MikeW]

For some reason I was under the impression that the greeny drab uniform was coloquially referred to as "khakis".

Well, I agree with Junior, sort of, I have in front of me as I type, the RNAS financial accounts relating to a flying officer who went to France in March 18 and unfortunately died on the 31st March.

It mostly deals with an over charge of tax made after the poor chap died, but within the accountant's figures lurks the following:

8th March '18 Khaki Outfit V12-3383 Post £20.00


This relates to his application for a gratuity for his overseas uniform - A Khaki uniorm according to the official accounts.

There is also a mentioned a £15.00 gratuity for his uniform when he joined the service in August 1917.

So the RNAS Accounts department referred to "Khaki" in 1918.

I also have a number of group photographs taken post armistice (one in the middle of 1919) where ex-RNAS officers are still wearing their RNAS uniforms.


Mike